HP e9150t memory , dual or tri-channel?

[MattPhillips]

Hi,

I don't know a whole lot about memory, but I've seen that the Dell XPS 435 offers an identical memory configuration to HP's 6GB of DDR3 SDRAM, 3 DIMMS, *except* that Dell identifies theirs explicitly as tri-channel, whereas no such distinction is made by HP.  Does anyone know what kind HP memory is?  I've read that for i7s having tri-channel really makes a difference.  Thanks--

Matt

[RoyalSerpent]

At the current state of technological development, going from dual to tri yields much less of an improvement than switching from single to dual.  The gain amounts to less than 50MHz of CPU core speed.  An i7 CPU should support tri channel mode when mated to an i7 board.

i7 uses on-board memory controller.  Therefore, it's not as sensitive to RAM speed as the older C2D technology.

Build a custom i7 rig if you want to get the most out of this platform.  A quality MB and i7 920 can easily hit 3.8GHz overclock.  I've built three rigs with chip.  All three are uber stable at 4.0GHz on air.

It's all BS marketing in the PC business.  I have yet to see any application pulling more than 4GB of physical RAM.  Yet the PC vendors are promoting rigs with 6-8GB of RAM.  The un-used RAM waste electricity, add more heat, prolong boot time, and rob a few additional CPU clock cycles.  The memory controller must work harder with the additional memory load, often at the sacrifice of slower memory timing!

The slowest component in a modern PC is the hard drive.  Instead of wasting $ on un-used RAM, you should switch to a 10,000rpm boot drive and a high-end 7,200 rpm data drive.

[MattPhillips]

 Hi RoyalSerpent,

Thanks for your response, which I think will prove very helpful once I understand it  

At the current state of technological development, going from dual to tri yields much less of an improvement than switching from single to dual.  The gain amounts to less than 50MHz of CPU core speed.  An i7 CPU should support tri channel mode when mated to an i7 board.

So tri-channel is a 'mode' rather than pure hardware spec?  Is this something I could set one way or the other?

i7 uses on-board memory controller.  Therefore, it's not as sensitive to RAM speed as the older C2D technology.

I take it by 'RAM speed' means the same as 'CPU core speed as a function of RAM size' here, and is not an independent parameter of RAM?

Build a custom i7 rig if you want to get the most out of this platform.  A quality MB and i7 920 can easily hit 3.8GHz overclock.  I've built three rigs with chip.  All three are uber stable at 4.0GHz on air.

Yes that's on my learn-to-do-someday list but I really couldn't afford to screw something up and have things not work when I need them to right now, although I've heard it's really not that hard.  Good to hear that the i7 on its own is working out however.

It's all BS marketing in the PC business.  I have yet to see any application pulling more than 4GB of physical RAM.  Yet the PC vendors are promoting rigs with 6-8GB of RAM.  The un-used RAM waste electricity, add more heat, prolong boot time, and rob a few additional CPU clock cycles.  The memory controller must work harder with the additional memory load, often at the sacrifice of slower memory timing!

 That's interesting--though I guess for the e9150t you have to go high.

Ultimately though I still don't get it re memory.  So is dual/tri just a settable parameter, or something that depends on the CPU?  The way Dell presents its configuration options doesn't make it seem like it's either of these.  Is the HP RAM at least dual and not single channel?  TIA--

Matt

http://www.insidehw.com/Reviews/Memory/Intel-Core-i7-Dual-Channel-vs.-Triple-Channel-Memory-Mode.html

[RoyalSerpent]

1.  To run in tri-channel mode, you'll need a CPU and motherboard that support this technology.  The speed advantage of tri-channel amounts to no more than 50MHz of CPU core speed compare to the same rig in dual-channel.  The system will auto select the tri-channel mode once you pop three RAM modules (same size) into the appropriate slots.  RAM timing should default to the slowest RAM module.  I'm not aware of any board where the user can turn ON/OFF tri-channel support.

2.  RAM speed is the operating speed of the individual memory module.  In general, people use higher-speed RAM to overclock the CPU via the FSB.  Adding higher-speed RAM to a non-overclocking board will require the use of a memory divider to run the RAM at the higher rated speed.  This is a function of the board's BIOS.  Again, faster RAM will only increase system speed by 1-1.5% (noise in my book). 

IC vendors pre-sort chips after fab.  The slower chips are used on slower/cheaper OEM RAM.  The faster chips are soldered to more expensive overclocking RAM modules.

3.  You could have someone build a custom quad core rig for less than the cost of that stock i7.  Performance will be higher since the CPU will run north of 3.6GHz.  The hardware will come with 3-5 years mfr warranty.  Finally, the quality of the PSU, case, and CPU cooler will be superior to those found in a stock HP.  The load temp of a custom rig should not exceed 55C under normal use.  That's 20C lower than a comparable HP rig.

I would only buy a boxed PC if my budget is under $400.  At that price, no cumstom builder can compete with the big box vendors unless he/she works for free.

[MattPhillips]

Hello,

So frustrating--I had actually done my homework and posted (I think?) the results, but they didn't show up on the HP server.  Did I get timed out and my response lost?  Anyway, this website was useful both for clearing up what dual/tri channel is about,

http://www.valueram.com/europe/triplechannel/

and for indicating which motherboards support triple-channel.  This is the s9150t motherboard, from its specs sheet:

 Motherboard Name

• Manufacturer: Pegatron IPMTB-TK
• HP: Truckee-UL8E

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01792852&cc=us&dlc=en&lc=en&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

The Pegatrion wasn't on their list of MBs that support tri-channel.  However, I could find *nothing* about Pegatron's support for dual vs tri-channel memory, or about its quality in general, online, that was in English anyway.  Lastly, the m9600t, which I guess is the predecessor to the e9150t? --is said to have triple-channel memory here:

http://www.productwiki.com/hp-pavilion-elite-m9600t/

and it uses the same motherboard.  So what's the deal?  Does the Pegatron at least support dual-channel?  Though admittedly the differences your describing are small. I've emailed hp tech support but they haven't gotten back to me yet.  Do you know anything about these boards in general?  I want to believe that they must be ok, otherwise HP wouldn't keep using them...

 3.  You could have someone build a custom quad core rig for less than the cost of that stock i7.  Performance will be higher since the CPU will run north of 3.6GHz.  The hardware will come with 3-5 years mfr warranty.  Finally, the quality of the PSU, case, and CPU cooler will be superior to those found in a stock HP.  The load temp of a custom rig should not exceed 55C under normal use.  That's 20C lower than a comparable HP rig.

We had a machine that an EE grad student built for us once, extremely cheap and worked great, except: he forgot to give us the admin password, which caused us enormous difficulties down the road when we wanted to install software (iirc--my wife's machine).  I think things like that can always happen so unless I built it myself, or had the skills to do so, I couldn't go this route.  Also I will be doing some development so a standard platform is a good idea.

Best,

Matt

Message Edited by MattPhillips on 07-11-2009 11:09 AM

Message Edited by MattPhillips on 07-11-2009 11:09 AM

[RoyalSerpent]

Asus has some high-quality overclocking boards.  Recently, the company splits into three parts.  The Pegatron division handles cheap OEM boards.  HP trims all the goodies and performance from a retail board to meet the targeted price point.  The power and cooling sections use the minimum of components to get the job done.  A dual channel board is equipped with 2 or 4 RAM slots.  A tri-channel board is populated with 6 RAM slots. 

This strategy is okay for a cheap web browsing PC.  With a high-end PC, you want continued MB support from the manufacturer (about 6-12 BIOS updates during the product's lifecycle).  New BIOSes are needed to support newer CPUs and any hardware/software conflict.  You may get one or two updates with an HP board.

An extremely cheap custom PC is a junk PC.  That kid should be able to remove the password and change admin policy in two minutes.  Good hardware cost more $.  Expect to pay about $500 for a quality dual-core gaming rig. 

You've asked some good questions.  Bottomline is that you're trying to justify why it's okay to spend that kind of $ on a stock i7 rig from HP.  A custom PC uses 100% standard hardware.  There are no proprietary components.  Cooling, noise, and performance are vastly superior to that i7 rig.  You can call up the local builder for help.  Try that with an HP...some foreign script-reading phone monkey.  The main advantage of that i7 rig is that you could write a check and take delivery the same day.

Don't worry about dual channel, tri channel, i7, or DDR3.  Tell me exactly what you want to do with this PC.  What type of development work?  I've been messing around with this stuff since 1983.  The major stumbling block is which OS you want to use.  Vista is slow and bloated compared to XP.  It is loaded with DRM.  W7 BETA is Vista minus some of the bloats.  It's based on the same Vista core engine...perhaps 1-2% speed boost with some benchies.  If you must have W7, then wait till the 2nd quarter of 2010 for Vista SP1.  Let other people be the BETA tester.

Right now, WXP Pro 64-bit appears to be the best OS available for high-performance PC computing.  The OS is widely compatible with many programs (XP Pro 32-bit is #1 for compatibility but you will only be able to run up to 3.2GB of RAM).  Speed is vastly superior to Vista and W7.  DRM is virtually non-existent.

Message Edited by RoyalSerpent on 07-11-2009 12:55 PM

[MattPhillips]

Thanks again--so then the HP does support tri-channel, since there are 6 DIMMs on its motherboard--I assume it's one DIMM per slot?   It's kind of depressing to hear your take on the PC manufacturing process--in this and other threads--but I take this is the story with any manufacturer?  Anyway I had no idea Pegatron was part of Asus, that makes me feel a little better (not a complete unknown anymore--) but still a little odd that it wasn't on that Kingston list of tri-chan supporters.

With a high-end PC, you want continued MB support from the manufacturer (about 6-12 BIOS updates during the product's lifecycle).  New BIOSes are needed to support newer CPUs and any hardware/software conflict.  You may get one or two updates with an HP board.

 Yes, what I saw on the Asus Wikipedia page wasn't too encouraging.  Okay, one more caveat re HP.  As far as that custom PC went, the grad student moved away, that was the problem.

A custom PC uses 100% standard hardware.  There are no proprietary components.  Cooling, noise, and performance are vastly superior to that i7 rig.  You can call up the local builder for help.  Try that with an HP...some foreign script-reading phone monkey.  The main advantage of that i7 rig is that you could write a check and take delivery the same day.

Sorry, same day delivery for the HP?  They still have to build it--maybe I misunderstand. As for 'the local builder', I wish--my street has a bakery, pizza places, a sushi restaurant, but no PC builder has put up a shingle.  I see websites for custom-built PCs online, and I have to say that this machine looks pretty good,

http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Mega_Special_IV/

but then I'm sacrificing peace of mind by buying from a vender I'd never heard of before my search, in the case that something breaks.  I imagine I could pay even less if I looked harder for someone in my area (NYC) but again, less peace of mind (which is exactly how the big names get you, I know!  But I figuring out hardware solutions on my own is just not a can of worms I want to open up).  Interestingly HP (#72), Compaq (#78) beat out Dell (#93) for customer experience, here:

http://experiencematters.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/forrester%E2%80%99s-2008-customer-experience-rankings/

My plans wrt this machine are fairly open-ended.  The development is for data visualization and analysis programs, and experimental software (I'm a research scientist).  The latter draws stimuli to a screen and manipulates incoming signals, analog et al.  It also relies on multi-threading and will ultimately need all of the horsepower it can get.  At the present, I could get by with something much more modest than what I've been targeting, but I've always found that 'good' turned out to be not good enough for the next thing I wanted to try.  E.g. the Dell laptop I have--it's not so old (2006) but because of its integrated graphics card it won't, and can't, some necessary openGL features. So I'd like to get a powerhouse now and not worry that it won't be able to handle the next thing I want to do.  Like use the next sweet opensource math/graphics library someone puts up, for example.

As for OS, I like to use Linux as much as possible, but the available support for openGL and the graphics cards I've been using--intel 945gm, an ATI Radeon in a Mac--has been terrible, so I'm on Windows for now.  Many of my users will have Windows, but the toolkits I use are cross-platform (knock on wood) so all I really need to do is cross-compile.   Which brings me to why I didn't just get a Dell, which is the standard where I work and which looks to have a better motherboard (agree?): The apparently terrible drivers AMD puts out for Linux are so bad, in my experience and that of many other people--that I have resolved to get an nVidia card.  But Dell offers only ATI cards!  So, here I am.  The discussion we've been having makes HP seem cheesier in the MB department, so I'm still not sure what to do.  Of course I could just get a Dell and then buy the nVidia separately, but that's more $$, and in the course of researching things it's not clear to me that Dell is so great either... and the Dell analog of the e9150t is more expensive... <sigh>...  Is there a really a reliable 'custom' way to go?  Who do you think has the advantage between Dell and HP here?

Matt

[MattPhillips]

Hmm, maybe I just had a 'breakthrough'--the Dell motherboard is an Intel X58.  Is Intel generally better on the sort of support you mentioned (or otherwise)?  E.g. will I get a longer lifespan on the desktop with Dell? If there's a real advantage there then I think my search might be over

Matt

[RoyalSerpent]

The kid could always walk you thru the re-configuration over the phone.  It's a 10 min job, even for a PC dummy. 

HP will do stupid things to save a few pennies.  I suppose marketing would include tri-channel on the spec sheet if the board support this function.  That's why HP OEM stuffs are warranted only by HP.  The hardware manufacturer will not give you the time of the day.  If this was a retail board from Asus or Gigabyte, then I'm 99.99% sure that it will run in tri-channel mode. 

GOOG for PC reliability.  HP/Compaq is consistently at the bottom of the food chain when it come to PC reliability over the last few years.  The POS recovery partition is a joke.  How much would it cost to provide two recovery DVDs?  I can buy 100 quality blank Verbatim DVD discs for $15. 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/apple-asus-lenovo-computer-reliability,7364.html

Don't buy blindly from the internet.  Referral is best.  Look at the quality of the workmanship.  This is a very fast-moving field.  You have to enjoy playing around with the PC on a daily basis to stay on top of the game.  There are certain combo that will work well together.  Even if you have the best components, something could go wrong with the build.  That's why it's so important for the builder to give the PC a complete burn-in.  I've seen PSU go poof after two days of testing.  RAM that don't meet spec is another common failure mode.

We usually charge about $200 per build.  If we're punching the time clock, then we would work below minimum wage.  Most of us do it because it's a cheap way to fund the hobby.  The big boys are very good with visual styling and buzz words to attract noobs.  Hardware integrity is just good enough to meet advertised specs.

If you are positive that the software can take advantage of all four cores and push them to 100% load, then you will need to overclock the CPU for the highest possible core speed.  An i7 920 @ 2.7GHz is a lot slower than the same chip @ 4.0GHz!  That's one of the main advantage of a custom-built rig.  You can configure the system for dual or triple boot with any high-end GPU of choice.  The case has ample ventilation for the most powerful CPU and GPU.  The stock HP will overheat and sound like a jet taking off when the CPU and GPU are running at 100% load.

Based on my personal experiences, the stuffs that you are working with are not coded to take full advantage of all four cores.  Find a powerful PC at work that's "fast enough" for your needs.  Run those programs on that PC with Task Manager in the background.  Watch the CPU load.  Do all 2/4 cores hit 95-100% load?  At the end of the run, record the Peak Commit Charge.  This will give me an idea of how much processing power is need for your new rig.

Ever heard of folding@home?  My overclocked dual core E7400 @ 4.2GHz rarely break 80% load while running distributed computing tasks.  I doubt that your software is much more demanding than this.  Download and run the 1M digit Super Pi test.  This E7400 rig completes this task in 12.3 seconds.  How long does it take for your current rig to run this program?

http://folding.stanford.edu/English/About

http://www.xtremesystems.com/pi/

I don't think the DELL MB is better.  DELL offers a little more value at the same price range, although the case design is less flashy.  I believe recovery CDs are still shipped with new PCs.

The key is to run some tests to identify what you really need, instead of what you think you need.  The new PC should be configured as a dual boot, with Linux and XP Pro 64.  Based on your post, I think a $700 dual core CPU @ +4.0GHz/4GB DDR2 RAM rig should have plenty of speed to breeze thru these tasks.  If you want to buy some additional insurance, then upgrade to a $1000 quad core rig @ +3.8GHz/4GB of DDR2 RAM.

I've build a few Linux rigs with this $85 Radeon HD 4850.  No problemo.  Do checkout the latest video driver for a modern ATI GPU.  Again, a top notch custom builder should be able to provide you with the latest scoops.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/New-ATI-Video-Driver-Fixes-Ubuntu-Issues-114474.shtml

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161244

The dual core rig @ 4.0GHz is faster than a stock i7 920 as long as the program does not fully tax all four of the i7's cores.  CPU core speed is still KING.  At the same CPU core speed, i7 is 15-20% faster than a C2D. 

DDR3 and the i7 boards have not reached full maturity.  Why pay big bucks to be a BETA tester?  There are no perfect board.  However, the P45/C2D/DDR2 platform is still KING when it comes to speed and stability.  The AMD Phenom II/DDR2 platform has a slight advantage in gaming thanks to the onboard memory controller.  You'll also save about $100 per build with an AMD rig.  Since you're not a gamer, the Intel rig would be the superior number chruncher.

http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=3596

My source at Kingston tells me that they are also experiencing untimely death with some DDR3 modules.

"Windows XP is still the preferred operating system for 90% of the synthetic and 3D programs when benchmarking." 

Message Edited by RoyalSerpent on 07-12-2009 08:06 AM

[Burd]

The e9150t (which uses the x58 chipset , as does the Dell) definitely runs its memory in tri-channel mode, assuming you install the SIMMs in the proper config (you need to install in sets of 3).   I compared the XPS 435 to the m9600t-- same mobo as the e9150t (I was replacing a Dell Dimension 9100) and chose the m9600t and haven't been disappointed (but I have had essentially zero problems with it since getting it in April; be aware there are lots of reports of hangs in other threads.  So far all of these seem to be configs using NVIDIA  graphics cards; I got the ATI HD4850 and haven't had any issues).

After living with the heat and noise (and huge boat anchor tower) of the Dell 9100, the m9600t is a vast improvement.  I keep the tower on my desktop and appreciate the fact that it has a small footprint, it's very quiet, and runs (compared to the awful Pentium D 840 in the 9100) COOL with the typical mix of apps I run.  Junction temps typically in low forties at normal room ambient with the AVC Napoleon (minus the LED lighting) cooler it uses (cheap heatpipe cooler/fan,  but definitely not awful). Max out the proc and it runs warmer and a little louder, but never approaches the howl of the 9100 at idle. Knowing how big computer companies are run (I worked for the biggest) I can tell you that thermal analysis is one thing they *do* when putting these parts inside a box. And they know what the cooling demand will be-- because they can't be overclocked. It will run the part within Intels' thermal envelope.

I ran 1M SuperPi in 15.6 sec, but then I didn't bother to close any of the gadgets or  the copy of Flight Sim X, and left the PVR running recording CNBC (the optional $60 Hauppauge 1290 built in tuner was an unexpected treat-- it works GREAT with Vista MCE on clear QAM and can simultaneously record digital HD as well as an analog station, if your cable still has them-- I played around with that lousy Fusion 5 tuner software on the Dell and in 4 years never got that thing to correctly schedule a recording).  I don't need a benchmark to tell me that this machine has performance to spare.  In virtually every task (except FSX) it's IO bound; the CP's are loafing (I'm waiting for SSD's to come down in price to help with that problem)  OC would be sweet, but at this point in my life (I worked for 18 years designing mainframe hardware) working with chips and boards isn't the thrill it once was.

Strengths (in my book) compared to the XPS435--  it's not a huge space hog, and the feature I initially thought I would appreciate least-- the ability to pop in (and out) 1TB of fully portable (USB 2.0) storage for backup with NO increase in footprint, and no need to remove the case cover. I can now image my laptop and my desktop on the same portable drive. And it doesn't take away the ability to add in another internal HDD or optical if you choose (though you will need patience in sorting out the rats nest of cables inside).  It also accepts the smaller form factor HP external (USB 2.0 powered-- no external AC adapter req. if you want to also use it with a laptop) drive internally--at capacities up to 500GB.   Sure, you're 'locked in' to HP for supplying these, but they're also cheap and good (the 1TB can be had on sale for $89, and you get a WDC drive inside).

All in all, no complaints aside from a couple of legacy 16 bit apps (cardfile!) that finally met their maker in Vista 64.   Caveat emptor always applies, but this was the best $980 (with TV tuner, ATI HD4850 and wireless, using a coupon applied to the best hp.com 'special') I ever spent.

Message Edited by Burd on 07-13-2009 08:33 AM