Are the Liquid Coolers for the z420 and z620 the Same Part ?

[BambiBoomZ]

Hello All,

As I'm setting up a new single processor z620 that will include CPU rendering duties, I'd like to use the HP liquid cooler.

It's possible to add a current closed loop,  but the HP z420 is a very tidy solution and said to be quiet, so I'd like to try to obtain the part designed specfically for the system first.

Listed as for the z420:

"For z420 and z620":

For very little- $15- I've bought a z620 main board fan/heatsink and noticed that in the listings, the part was said to be the same for the z420 and z620 mainboard.  The fan is offset to the socket on both, but the liquid cooler has the fan on the opposite side to the fan /heatsink, plus a small horizontal fan underneath, adding to the mystery.  But, I haven't been able to find a photo that specifically shows a z620 liquid cooler and have never seen a z620- specific liquid cooler advertised, only for z420 and unlike the fan/heatsink, the z420 liquid cooler listings don't mention: ",.. and z620."

 It's a bit expensive as an experiment- shipping costs and time.

> Are the z420 and z620 liquid cooler the same part? 

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

[MtothaJ]

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@BambiBoomZ wrote:

Hello All,

As I'm setting up a new single processor z620 that will include CPU rendering duties, I'd like to use the HP liquid cooler.

It's possible to add a current closed loop,  but the HP z420 is a very tidy solution and said to be quiet, so I'd like to try to obtain the part designed specfically for the system first.

Listed as for the z420:

"For z420 and z620":

For very little- $15- I've bought a z620 main board fan/heatsink and noticed that in the listings, the part was said to be the same for the z420 and z620 mainboard.  The fan is offset to the socket on both, but the liquid cooler has the fan on the opposite side to the fan /heatsink, plus a small horizontal fan underneath, adding to the mystery.  But, I haven't been able to find a photo that specifically shows a z620 liquid cooler and have never seen a z620- specific liquid cooler advertised, only for z420 and unlike the fan/heatsink, the z420 liquid cooler listings don't mention: ",.. and z620."

 It's a bit expensive as an experiment- shipping costs and time.

> Are the z420 and z620 liquid cooler the same part? 

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

---

Perhaps soemone has some better insights into this but I looked at this  litle, and my conclusion for the time being is that there was no dedicated liquid cooling solution offered by HP for the Z620. This is on the basis of:

- HP spare parts list - liquid cooling solutions exist for the Z420 and Z820 but not for the Z620

- HP liquid cooling document - http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/downloads/Liquid_Cooling_HP_Z420_Z820_Workstations.pdf - mentions Z420 and Z820 but not the Z620.

My suspicion is that if HP were to develop a liquid cooling for the Z620 then much like in the case of the Z820 it would be one that would cover both CPU's. And the fact is that since the 2nd CPU socket is on a riser board would mean that it would be a rather arkward / tight fit so they didnt bother.

Given that the Z620 board is basiclly a Z420 board with the 2nd CPU riser socket populated it stands the reason that in principle you would be able to use the Z420 liquid cooling solution however:

- the 2nd CPU riser  may not fit (not a concern in your particular scenario)

- the shroud with the fans that cools the RAM which goes on top of standard air cooler may not fit.

[BambiBoomZ]

MtothaJ,

This use is with a Xeon E5-1680 v2 so a 2nd CPU cooling solution is not necessary. The E5-1680 v2 was offered in z620's when new,  and there are two Passmark listings in z620's (CPU scores = 15794 and 16189).  If there was not an HP liquid cooler required, perhaps it wan't necessary at standard clock speeds.

And, that was my conclusion also that the z420 and z620 are so similar in layout that the standard fan/heatsink for both models can be the same part. The offset of the heatsink and radiator to the socket in the case of the liquid cooler appear to be the same. The problem does seem to reside in the shroud dimensions as the liquid radiator is wider, extending over the chipset which in both the z420 and z620 has three cooling fluid tubes exending over it, but on the CPU mounting plate surface.  The side of the shroud on the tubes side is however open, such that in the absence of a 2nd CPU riser, a cooler could possibly extend  (= down) over the  chipset.  The liquid cooler has a small auxiliiary fan to cool the chipset.

Liquid cooler in z420:

z620 with single processor:

My thought is the possibility that the open bottom of the shroud will allow the fan/ radiator aseembly to project over the Copper tubes, while the chipset cooling fan remains properly oriented. 

Possibly, the standard CPU fan/heatsink was sufficient at standard clock speeds of 3.0/3.9GHz as the E5-1680 v2 is 130W.  However, the E5-1680 v2 has an unlocked multiplier and was certified when new to overclock to 4.3Ghz which may overwhelm the standard fan/heatsink in CPU rendering. It also has a higher maximum temperature rating of 85C- the highest I know.  The 1680 v2 will shut down if the 130W is exceeeded. The E5-1660 v2 I use now- also 130W- is rated to 72C. Even at stock clock speeds, the E5-1660 v2 in the z420 could push the temperatures, although I've never had thermal throttling. There is an E5-1680 v2 on Passmark running at 5.1GHz and a number report running them at 4.4 and even 4.6GHz on all eight cores while not exceeding the 130W rating. < What a simultaneously pleasant and frightening thought,..

My goal with the E5-1680 v2 is to have as high a single-thread rate as possible while maintaining stability in CPU rendering. The E5-1680 v2 has the 3rd highest average single-thread rating for Xeon E5's in Passmark, following the E5-1680 v4 and E5-1650 v4.  If the 1680 v2 will run on all cores at 4.6GHz, I am considering something along the lines of 4.3GHz on one core and 3.4GHz on the other seven. If possible. I would like to be as near as possible to the single thread rating of 2301 for the z420 E5-1660 v2 (6C@4.0 /4.2)  for 3D modeling, but that's unlikely.

Is anyone here using liquid cooling in a z620? I would consider an aftermarket solution,  but don't know where the radiator could be mounted and would prefer the HP liquid cooler if it works, as is compact and was designed to be very quiet.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

[MtothaJ]

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@BambiBoomZ wrote:

Is anyone here using liquid cooling in a z620?  I would consider an aftermarket solution,  but would prefer the HP liquid cooler if it works as is compact and was designed to be very quiet.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

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The only aftermarket solution similar to the HP design for the Z420 which I am aware of is the Cooler Master MasterLiquid Maker 92:

http://www.techspot.com/community/topics/cooler-master-unveils-the-masterliquid-maker-92-a-compact-a...

Much like the HP design it is compact and the entire system sits on top of the CPU. The design also has a feature where the radiator pivots so one is able to have the radiator vertically (probably would not fit in the Z620 due to height), laying horizontally on top of the CPU, or some setting in between.

It remains to be seen whether even in the horizontal position the cooler would not be interfering with the RAM cooling / plastic shrouds. I guess it would be possible to remove the fan shroud and just stick some heatsinks / fins on the RAM but this may be taking things somewhat too far.

I guess if you went with the Z420 liquid cooler, you could revert to using the Z420 case for the build if things do not go to plan in the Z620. The only other options I can think of are not exactly elegant - using a standard AIO solution e.g. Corsair H80 and attempting to install the radiator / fans in place of the rear exhaust fans or some kind of a solution where the radiator and fans would be outside of the case.

[MtothaJ]

Regarding the Z420 liquid cooler, the cooler is still available to purchase as a new part:

http://www.dhgate.com/store/product/new-original-water-cooled-heat-sink-for-hp/377625699.html

Price is however a little on the high side - c.a. 200 USD, esp. considering that it is basically the same amount I spent on my v2 CPU.

I actually have a spare Be Quiet Dark Rock 3 air cooler from my former Z170 build which I dismantled, with all the associated fittings, including for the 2011 socket. However this is too tall to fit into the Z420. Overall given the case dimensions the options are pretty limited.

Also contemplating another idea at the moment - I got a line on some brand new (new old stock) Asus P9X79 Pro boards, which have popped up for sale locally for c.a. 200 USD, with a 1 year warranty. Given that I have the air cooler, a Corsair 300R case with a Be Quiet 650W PSU I am kind of thinking of maybe getting the board and putting the E5-1650v2 CPU into that. The real probelm is RAM, since AFAIK ECC registered will not work in a X79 (only standard unbuffered or ECC unbuffered)... decesions, decesions. 

[BambiBoomZ]

MTothaJ,

I had a conversation yesterday with a fellow in the HP business parts and service department.  Despite being knowledgeable, engaged, and diligent on the topic, it was not possible to identify the mysterious z620 liquid cooler available as the "configure to order" option in the original spec sheet.

Given the similarities of the z420 and z620 motherboards, the similar thermal parameters -and the thermal load would be higher in a z620 having dual processors,  the economy of making a fairly complex part adaptable to two systems, the fact that the air cooler for z420 and z620 has the same part number, and the absence of discrete part number for a listed option, it seems the z420 liquid cooler is the logical  solution. 

This may however, be a situation of unnecessary concern, as HP will not have specified the E5-1680 v2 for use in a z620 if there was not an acceptable thermal control overhead.

The current plan is to get the system going on a standard air cooler and test the E5-1680 v2 under rendering load. The maximum temperature rating is higher for the 1680- 85C- than the E5-1660 v2 in use now- 72C and rendering must be a common use for the 1680.  If the tempertures are uncomfortable,  I'll try the z420 liquid cooler- and if that doesn't fit, cool to an acceptable level, and maintain the memory fans positions etc,  I'm considering:

1. Building an i7-7700K modeling system - for the very high single-thread performance and use the current z620 (2X E5-2690 8-core) for rendering and simulation. That would however, defeat the goal of a single system.

2. Maintaining the idea of a single system, building using the E5-1680 v2 on an X79 board which according to Passmark tests, has the highest performance potential. This includes E5-1680 v2's running at 4.4, 4.6. and 5.0GHz.  the World Record for E5-1680 v2 by the way is almost frightening- all cores 5.7GHz.   That must be a very short time using liquid Nitrogen cooling.

3. Abandon the project and run everything on the z420 E5-1660 v2, liquid cooling with all cores at 4.2GHz (the current setting) increasing the RAM to 64GB and adding a Quadro P4000 8GB.

4. Buy a Dell Precision T5810 with an E5-1650 v4 as that the 1650 v4 the 2nd highest single-thread performance for any Xeon E5 (Passmark average =2180).  First is E5-1680 v4 (=2200) and third is E5-1680 v2  (=2178).  The T5810 maintains the highest CPU marks for the E5-1650 v4.

It's an interesting project on the cost/performance level, and to consolidate the capabilities to a single system, but was prompted to facilitate the completion of a very large project.  The level of distraction in organizing a new system is tilting the solution in favor of option 3.

Thanks again for your reply.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

[MtothaJ]

IMHO to the extent that it is feasible it would make sense to go for a single system. Apart from the obvious space and expenses considerations, there is also the inconvinience of going between systems as well as the additional time spent on maintenance - running updates, troubleshooting, perhaps additioanl licencing costs for various programs etc.

Therefore option 3, potentially substituting the 1660 v2 for the 1680v2 makes a lot of sense. Given that you both have a Z420 and Z620 systems these would be the obvious starting points for motherboard / chassis, with the liquid cooler being an option if things get a bit too hot at higher settings.

Regarding the idea of a X79 board, I have thought about this some more, but think that at this point in time it is probably not worth it, at least in my case when I have to buy the RAM also. All that would really allow one to do would be to run the CPU a couple of hundred mhz faster, the DDR3 memory would effectively be a sunk cost since it would not be compatible with newer platforms and IMHO the total cash outlay is not worth the prospective performance increase and hassle.

I would personally not buy a Z270 machine (I had a Z170 / i7 6700k) but if you are thinking of getting another system for single core performance it may be worth waiting another 1-2 months and getting the X299 with the entry level 7740k CPU.

Supposedly the 7740k will just be a very slightly improved i7 7700k (supposedly +100mhz on base and turbo on stock settings so 4.3/4.6ghz, 112W TDP vs 90W and finally better thermal paste / material under the heatspreader). The main point is that you will already be on the latest platform, to which you can move to over time as your primary PC once the better / higher core count CPU's become available. With the Z270 the game starts and ends with the i7 7700k and there are no more upgrade opportunities / perspectives for the platform.

[BambiBoomZ]

MtothaJ,

Specifying a single system capable of every task is, indeed, a difficult equation.  And, the impending change from LGA2011-3 to LGA2066, as you suggest, suggests that investment in consideration of future potential is limited.  However, it's possible to assemble a system using obsolete parts but that may still have performance towards the upper end of current systems.  There is an E5-1680 v2 system on Passmark running at 3.0 /4.6Ghz having a CPU Mark of 21389,  which suggests single thread rating of about 2640 - higher than the average i7-7700K at 2597- whereas the highest CPU score for the current 1660 v4 8-core averages 16334 and has a single thread of 2102.  The z420 is running the E5-1660 v2 at 4.2GHz on all cores- CPU = 15190  and single thread mark of 2324,  whereas the E5-1650 v4 (6-core) averages  14282 and 2180.   The idea is that the obsolete system can operate above the average of the comparable current system.  Intel seemed to plateau in clock speeds with E5- v2, the v3's dropped, and then there was an incremental improvement with v4's.  The E5-1660 v2 is 3.7 /4.0GHz and the E5-1650 v4 is 3.6 /4.0GHz, but the v4 has an improved architecture, a higher memory bandwidth, lower total memory latency, and higher memory speed.

A "consolidation system" is the best approach. I've been running two systems since 2010 and always believed that I would run renderings and simulations on the dual processor system and continue to work on the single CPU systems, but it always transpires that I have to apply so much attention to what's running on the dual system, almost nothing happens on the other. anyway, it is a bit fussy to send the models over to the other system.  Most importantly though is that there is two of everything and I would have better results from consolidating the cost of the GPU, RAM, and drives budget into a single set.

By the way, I think the X299 be LGA2066 whereas the i7-7700K successor will LGA1151 or it's successor.  the 6-core and above i7's will be LGA2066. If the LGA1151 is retained though the i7-7700K successor would run on z270.  But, don't get comfortable: LGA2076 is on it's way for 2020,..

Computers are just like the paradox of saying "Now". When the word is heard, it's already not true.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

[MtothaJ]

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@BambiBoomZ wrote:

By the way, I think the X299 be LGA2066 whereas the i7-7700K successor will LGA1151 or it's successor.  the 6-core and above i7's will be LGA2066. If the LGA1151 is retained though the i7-7700K successor would run on z270.  But, don't get comfortable: LGA2076 is on it's way for 2020,..

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

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I7-7740k will be for the LGA socket 2066. It looks that after Ryzen has launched Intel is departing from its policy to date of only featuring 6+ core varients on the HEDT platform. Supposedly going forward it is possible that the i7 line will be HEDT exclusive, with the i5 getting hyperthreading and becoming the mainstream top of the line CPU. In any case competition is definitetly a good thing, its been far too long that Intel had a monopoly in the market.

In other news, I ended up ordering the Asus P9X79 Pro board. Given that the board is new, and that similar used X79 boards often go on ebay for 350+ USD, I thought it is too good of a deal to pass up on, even as a back up in case the Z420 would fail for one reason or another (e.g. excessive thermals 😉 ) - at least thats the case I am making for giving into my temptations. For the moment, I will look for a deal on DDR3 RAM (will go for 1866mhz unbufffered, non-ECC for maximum compatibility, probably 16 or 32GB for the moment) and see how far I can overclock the E5-1650 v1 which I have laying around.

The E5-1650 v2 is staying in the Z420, at least for now.

[BambiBoomZ]

MtothaJ,

Yes - I need to study, the i7-7740K  is indeed LGA2066. The base clock speed is quoted as 4.3GHz- an astoundingly mediocre +100MHz above the i7-7700K, but as the thermal diffusion rating changes from 91W to 112W, the upper limit should see a more substantial improvement.

A lot of users seem to have asked for hyperthreading i5 and it appears the next round of i5's may include it, but there are a lot of games that recommend non-hyperthreaded i5's  and/or disably hyperthreading in i7's.  I learned recently that my nemesis program- Sketchup- is said to run better with hyperthreading disabled- in the company of the murder-is-fun video games.  I really am going to have to change to civilized programs: Solidworks and 3ds Max,...

The new Asus P9X79 Pro is a very good choice.  In Passmark, the P9X79 far and away has the highest CPU perofrmance for the Xeon E5-1680 v2- running them at 4.6 to 5.0 GHz. If i were pursuing absolute performance, I  would have been better off with a P9X79 than using the z620 as starting with the ASUS board would mean complete freedom as to CPU cooling. I would have purchased a Noctua NH-D15 > which is about the same size as a Smart Car, or a Corsair H100 liquid cooler.  However, for the single consolidation system project I have more trust in the z620 build quality, reliability, system integration, and the z620 is amazingly quiet. The CPU cooling is still a concern however.

Looking at Passmark baselines for the E5-1650 first version, the top CPU marks are: 15536 (ASUS Rampage Black), 15526 (ASrock Extreme6), 15283 (Alienware 0FPV4P) all probably 4.3GHz.  The top ASUS P9X79 mark is 14443 which suggests 4.1GHz. The top HP score is on z420 of 12483 and that will be the standard 3.8GHz. The Passmark average for the E5-1650 is 11812, so the z420 is running them well. The top Dell Precision T3600 score is 12326.

Be careful though of contracting "overclocking fever"- higher CPU  performance free of charge might be as addictive as gold mining.  My recent experiments with the z420's E5-1660 v2 produced a twinge of that and prompted an immediate investigation of liquid cooling- the first symptom.  If I ever start researching liquid Nitrogen, call the sanitarium,...

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ