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Message 11 of 22
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If the system is a clean installation this is also my recommendation, but this usually won't work on preinstalled OS from the manufacturer for reasons I can't explain myself for sure. They maybe modify the system way too much and install a lot of bloatware which somehow trashes the system performance permanently.

I already worked with a lot of preinstalled Windows systems and NONE of them worked better after all maintenance possibilities.

 

It was always necesarry to save all private data and install a clean OS, which is always the best you can do, in my experience. It takes a lot of time and needs a lot of knowledge to configure everything correctly, but then everything feels great and should stay that performant as long as possible. 

 

 

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Message 12 of 22
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Hi Tasana-Studios,

 

This is not 100% correct.

Because Windows is developed by apes every installation can lead to performance loss. Every Program that starts up on SSD and HDD WILL affect the boot time and maybe the system performance.

You don't always know what a new program is doing in the background to the registry or drivers.

 

I have an i7-8700K overclocked to 6x 4,9Ghz; 32GB RAM; GTX 1080 TI and a Samsung EvoPlus 1TB nvme SSD on a 4xPCIe Port for the OS.

 

After the clean installation boot and shutdown time increased by the double. We are talking about an increase of 10 to 20 seconds. My system needs to boot up with 3 SSDs, 2 HDDs and 7 Programs which I need. Not to forget all the driver software and services for some of the programs.

Without all of these things it would boot up much faster. Even with this nvme SSD which can seqeuentially READ and WRITE up to 3,5GB/s and over 500MB/s in 4K and mixed up tests.

 

In comparision to my Samsung 850 Pro SATA SDD the tested performance is massively different. But in the real world the noticeable performance increase is not as huge as the numbers are telling us. It is there, yes, but not as expected.

 

It's not allways only about the used drive. It's also the CODE that must be more efficient and run through the CPU cores.

This nvme SSD is only going up to 40% of its capabilieties while normally used, because even my overclocked 8700K is too slow for using 100% and increase the boot time to the maximum.

 

So this tells us that EVERY installation or crapware will affect performance. 

Low- and mid-range CPUs will be affected even with an SSD inside the laptop or pc.

High- and Ultrahigh-End Systems will just handle these things better but there will be still a small decrease in boot time and performance.

 

So only install as much as needed!

Only boot up as much as necesarry from Startup, MSConfig and Services (easier to handle via CCleaner)

 

But in one point you are very right, Tasana-Studios.

Don't use tuning software. It will mostly make everything worse. Especially when they install adware which can't be removed from the installation list before. Sometimes they even trick you to accept an adware even if you click decline because the negate their question request like: "If dou don't accept the installation of our crap blah blah blah then click "continue"..." 
Instinctively you might click decline and the unwanted adware will be installed anyway, even if you didn't intend to accept... But you not not accept.

 

Only use cleanup tool from Windows and Cleaner carefully.

Optimize your SSDs and defrag your HDDs for optimal capabilities but only if you want to as it won't give you back more than a very low percentage of speed since Windows 10.

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27 25 1 10
Message 13 of 22
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I personally do not consider the MS developers apes since I have worked with them in the past. 

You mentioned that you had several programs that you needed to start on start up, that will cause a decrease in startup time. As to installed programs on a SSD since the structure is different and the seek is different the timing is quicker. My post was not taking into consideration if someone installs spyware/adware.

 

As to the program you mentioned Ccleaner, it was once a good program, since it was recently purchased however it falls into the category of adware and now gets a high caution rating as to constant battery drain. Although Ccleaner is EASIER it is now a drain on any system and will bog it down.

One last word on SSD's and HDD's, it is a simply understanding of physics, a moving object causes resistance and non moving object does not. So regardless of all else SSD's boot faster.  

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Message 14 of 22
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 @Thundereus "If the system is a clean installation this is also my recommendation, but this usually won't work on preinstalled OS from the manufacturer for reasons I can't explain myself for sure."

 

All Windows 10 Installs are the exact same. Microsoft does not build a different OS for each OEM company. A preinstalled OS can be stripped clean IF you know how.

 

"They maybe modify the system way too much and install a lot of bloatware which somehow trashes the system performance permanently."

 

All OEM companies install Buyware, companies wanting customers to buy their software will pay an OEM to preinstall a trial version in hopes the customer will start using it then buy it. This buyware is in the startup so the customer will see it. All of this buyware can be removed. IT can be removed via the Control Panel and then if any folder remains searching the hard drive to manually remove the folders. Given the time it takes to do a fresh install of Windows 10, it is easier to remove buyware.

 

 

"in my experience. It takes a lot of time and needs a lot of knowledge to configure everything correctly, but then everything feels great and should stay that performant as long as possible. "

 

Actually reading.

If a user does a Clean Install of Windows 10 from the Internet Tool and not from the backup restore on the computer the OEM drivers will not be installed. Therefore a user will need to go to the OEM website, example HP Support and download the drivers. The first driver to always install is the chipset, this driver controls the flow of data and power on the motherboard and allows the proc to communicate properly with the RAM and controllers. The second driver is always the video, after that just install.

After all drivers are installed it is a good idea to look at Device Manager to make sure there are no missing drivers.

 

And one last thought all OEM companies install their own preference software HP has a very long list of software they install. Most of it is not needed and can be removed and will cause a performance increase. Although the HP software used to scan for missing drivers is great and the HP Assistant, once done remove then, they can slow the system

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Message 15 of 22
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Sorry for these hard words but I can't see that MS developers are trying to really fix actual problems which we have to face when using Windows. Almost every update is damaging the system and/or affecting performance negatively or even causing BSoDs. (This is mostly not my personal experience, but some updates really caused even my clean systems to crash). I am working with Windows for over 15 years now and saw that they are doing "something" but not what the consumer needs. Nobody asked for changing the start menu. Nobody asked for forced online accounts when the system is connected to the internet. A lot of stupid bugs can apear even with the newest drivers and programs installed which cause lagging, freezing, visual issues or hilarious error messages which aren't helping either.

I know a lot of workarounds and how to live with these, but that's not something that should be standard for an which comes from THE company which almost everyone knows on this planet.

I am aware that Windows is a very very very very complicated piece of software, but you can literally feel the old code from the 90's jumping into your face. It's hard to create a system that works on every hardware with every software, yes. but I think I could start writing a novel about all these problems this OS has and even then you maybe won't accept these reasons as bad development. 

I am not a programmer but I learned that the ressources (time, money, workers) Microsoft is having, should lead to a better and effecient OS, instead of broken updates and problems which are known almost for decades.

 

Of course there are worlds of difference between SSDs and HDDs in performance and I love SSDs for that!I am very aware how SSDs and HDDs work, but every program has still to be read which still increases boot time noticably. Not because of the file sizes but because of Windows' ineffeciency.

 

You are right, Ccleaner was once a good program and now suffers from adware/malware like problems, but when you know how to block all of its extra **bleep** it won't take much more ressources than before. CCleaner doesn't drain the batteries of my laptops when it will be run only to clean up the drives or disable services or programms from booting in the background.

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Message 16 of 22
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"All Windows 10 Installs are the exact same. Microsoft does not build a different OS for each OEM company. A preinstalled OS can be stripped clean IF you know how."

 

We are both right. I didn't explain myself 100% correctly.

I rather wanted to say that the system per-se is exactly the same, but if you don't have time or there is no reason to waste your time, it's much more effecient and safer to remove everything and install a clean OS.

 

 

 

"All OEM companies install Buyware, companies wanting customers to buy their software will pay an OEM to preinstall a trial version in hopes the customer will start using it then buy it. This buyware is in the startup so the customer will see it. All of this buyware can be removed. IT can be removed via the Control Panel and then if any folder remains searching the hard drive to manually remove the folders. Given the time it takes to do a fresh install of Windows 10, it is easier to remove buyware."

 

This not matching my experience with buyware or preinstalled OS's.

They always leave a lot of trash behind and you still won't be sure that they didn't change something or if some of the preinstalled drivers are working correctly on a preinstalled system.

Believe me I tried a lot and I never got the best performance of a preinstalled system and I know how to remove all of that "buyware". It's not even a good Idea as the normal consumer doesn't even understand all of that stuff and will be just annoyed when confronted with software which pops up into their face. 

 

 

"Actually reading.

If a user does a Clean Install of Windows 10 from the Internet Tool and not from the backup restore on the computer the OEM drivers will not be installed. Therefore a user will need to go to the OEM website, example HP Support and download the drivers. The first driver to always install is the chipset, this driver controls the flow of data and power on the motherboard and allows the proc to communicate properly with the RAM and controllers. The second driver is always the video, after that just install.

After all drivers are installed it is a good idea to look at Device Manager to make sure there are no missing drivers."

 

You don't know me so I can't blame you for explaining this to me. I know all of that very very well as it is something I do almost every day for private and commercial customers and people I know. Everyone is very happy with my work and their IT environments/systems work perfectly for years, also with my support when Windows **bleep**s them up with bad updates. - I don't intend to brag with this but to mentionn that I have a lot of experience with these things as my job / passionate profession.

I don't say that the helpless and absolutely lost consumer should freshly install their system - I should have mentioned this before - but someone who knows what he/she does, of course.

 

 

 

 

"And one last thought all OEM companies install their own preference software HP has a very long list of software they install. Most of it is not needed and can be removed and will cause a performance increase. Although the HP software used to scan for missing drivers is great and the HP Assistant, once done remove then, they can slow the system"

 

I know and this is also something the normal consumer can't handle. They don't understand that kind of stuff and even one more program which shows up, is way too much. But the consumer friendlyness is another topic.

I mean that OEM companies are doing a very bad job when it comes to their long list of preinstalled software. Some a great, some are so bad, that I would even call them adware or malware, instead of buyware or assistants.

Sometimes HP Assistant can be helpfull, but in 95% of all cases it's just a waste of time if you have the possbiliy to download everything manually.

 

I think it's all about experience and knowledge. Also a little preference, maybe.

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Message 17 of 22
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same things happend to me when i am using my laptop its being held and volume disappear and screen resolution change and i need to restart my system even everything is working fine and well i don;t know what's going on. mostly happen when i am using vpn maybe cyberghost desktop version is much heavier it slow down the system or maybe it is driver issue going to update my windows 10 or reinstall the whole thing 

flyunder vpn
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27 25 1 10
Message 18 of 22
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"Nobody asked for changing the start menu. Nobody asked for forced online accounts when the system is connected to the internet."

 

IK started coding in 1983, seen the rise of DOS, then Windows 3.1 laid on top of DOS etc...

Without question Windows 7 was and will remain the best OS MS ever developed. However W7 could not be altered to work on every platform, laptop, desktop, tablet, phone. Fact is OS developers from MS to Apple to Google want cross platform OS's.  Thus the reason MS changed to W8, then W10.

Keep in mind no user of Windows OWNES the OS, we "rent" it. Yep you pay for it, except W10, but you do not own it. So MS can do what they want, they own it. The reasoning behind the menu change and online log in is cross platform and giving the end user an Enterprise type personal network. So they can access their stuff on any device anywhere.

 

"A lot of stupid bugs can apear even with the newest drivers and programs "

This of course had nothing do to with MS. Out of the box Windows does not have drivers. It has a few basic generic drivers that allow a user to use the OS to complete an install but most of the driver issues are with the company that creates the hardware and writes the drivers. MS then does it's best to ensure the drivers will not crash the system. Thus the digital signed driver program that many hardware companies try to get around.  The same is true with software. As you well know Windows is just the environment and others toss things that break the glass. MS gets blamed because Windows is what people see.

I agree many updates do in fact crash the OS.

As to BIOS that is way before Windows even loads and a BIOS update is written by the OEM company and has no part in MS.

 

"but you can literally feel the old code from the 90's jumping into your face"

With Windows 10 every bit of old code was dumped. Windows 10 is the first truly from the ground up OS MS has written. It is based on Linux it is a Linux OS in all respects. That is why so much software and drivers are not backwards compatible. Therefore this is no way to "literally feel the old code" there is not one line of the old code that exist and with the most recent build (2004) they again stripped out a lot of blot and streamlined it. I did a force update to 2004 on all my systems and was very impressed at how well they run.

 

Like you and me most techs get very frustrated with MS over these OS major changes. However MS jumped from 8 to 10 because 10 is their last OS. 10 allows them the flexibility to  move forward on all platforms.

 

Now what Apple is about to do will create the greatest mess the IT world has ever known, in fact I am predicting most Apple users will cross over to Windows, what they are doing is too much, too big and will cost the end user thousands in a time when the jobless rate is at almost 50 million in the U.S.

http://www.dewaynewatts.com/home/apple-suicide-their-change-their-end 

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Message 19 of 22
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"IK started coding in 1983, seen the rise of DOS, then Windows 3.1 laid on top of DOS etc...

Without question Windows 7 was and will remain the best OS MS ever developed. However W7 could not be altered to work on every platform, laptop, desktop, tablet, phone. Fact is OS developers from MS to Apple to Google want cross platform OS's.  Thus the reason MS changed to W8, then W10.

Keep in mind no user of Windows OWNES the OS, we "rent" it. Yep you pay for it, except W10, but you do not own it. So MS can do what they want, they own it. The reasoning behind the menu change and online log in is cross platform and giving the end user an Enterprise type personal network. So they can access their stuff on any device anywhere."

Back then I also thought Windows 7 was the best, but from todays view it isn't anymore. As it doesn't work well with newest hardware and doesn't get supported by manufacturers like Nvidia, Intel etc. anymore. It can't beat the newest Windows platform, even if they aren't perfect, either.

I loved Windows 8.1 with classic shell, as it was very fast and working great. When MS released W10 I waited more than a year until I upgraded all of my systems and I wasn't very happy as it felt  slower and had much more visual/UI  bugs and threw out more error messages because of some programs.

 

I think we might think differently when we talk about buying a software on one or another level. Of course they own Windows, but you forget, that the consumer pays them to make it as good as possible and not what they want. So it is in their own interest to listen to them. If they do what they want they just make users unhappy and make them crack and modify, instead of buying their stuff.

Okay, W10 is almost for free and gives them more power about their decisions, but because Microsoft is creating the most popular OS' they kind of have the unwritten (or maybe written?) moral duty to develop in the interest of their customers world wide. 

With all of this I just want to say that I know what you mean and I totally understand that, but I am kind of different in thinking about all of these topics. I say: We pay, they do. Not: We pay, they do what they want.

If I get paid for a service it's not acceptable to think I have complete freedom in my deeds. I have to do the best to satisfy my customer and not make him pay for unwanted changes. At least I have to offer alternatives (Microsoft could have offered alternative Start Menus so we can choose if we want the annoying tile view or not.)

 

 

"With Windows 10 every bit of old code was dumped. Windows 10 is the first truly from the ground up OS MS has written. It is based on Linux it is a Linux OS in all respects. That is why so much software and drivers are not backwards compatible. Therefore this is no way to "literally feel the old code" there is not one line of the old code that exist and with the most recent build (2004) they again stripped out a lot of blot and streamlined it. I did a force update to 2004 on all my systems and was very impressed at how well they run.

 

Like you and me most techs get very frustrated with MS over these OS major changes. However MS jumped from 8 to 10 because 10 is their last OS. 10 allows them the flexibility to  move forward on all platforms."

 

 

You're right, also read this but again I didn't specify my thought good enough:

Of course it is possbile that they recoded a lot and on another base of language, but if you just translate bad and unefficient code it's still bad.

But yes, since 2004 it feels great and stable. I have a dual monitor setup with 1440p 144Hz and 1080p 60Hz and I was one of the "victims" 😉 who had great problems with this. I upgraded my primary monitor in February of this year so I saw that Windows 10 1909 suffered from heavy stuttering, lagging and desktop/driver crashes when two or more videos, graphical programs or games were running on both screens. My 144Hz felt sometimes like 60Hz and my 60Hz was looking like 30Hz. 

I read that this problem was existing since monitors with more than 60Hz + 60Hz were combined - so this bug existed for more than 7 years. I tried everything you can imagine of to fix this, but it was impossible if I wanted to keep my 2K144Hz.

Fortunately Windows 10 2004 fixed it and I am very happy!

You see, I'm not only complaining. There is a reason I am working with Windows instead of bitten Apple. I like the system, but I don't like certain changes and methods to force the user into a special direction. 

 

I somehow can't imagine that they will always stay to Windows 10 as everything keeps changing in the future. Who knows what the next CEO or "boss of development" want to do next in 5-10 years? But this is really nothing I am bothering about, because it's just a name/title. At least we have those different build numbers to diversify Windows 10 versions. (xxxx...18xx, 19xx, 20xx etc).

 

 

"Now what Apple is about to do will create the greatest mess the IT world has ever known, in fact I am predicting most Apple users will cross over to Windows, what they are doing is too much, too big and will cost the end user thousands in a time when the jobless rate is at almost 50 million in the U.S."

 

Hu? I hadn't time yet to check what Apple is about to do, but somwhere I read a headline that something horrible will happen.

If you have a link for me that would be great.

 

 

 

And thanks for this interesting discussion. I hope nobody is pissed about my critical argumentations ;). I'm not perfect, I just want to share my experience.

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Message 20 of 22
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