HPZ820 GPU Question ( another one, I know)

[Cdon79]

Hello good people,

Hopefully you can shed some light on my query. I've read many posts in and around this subject but none quite answered my specific query/context.

Thusfar I have been using a HPZ420 with 64gb of RAM (1600mhz) and a Geforce 1660Ti. 
My processor is the Intel Xeon E5-2687W v2
I use my workstation for video editing with Davinci Resolve (studio edition)
The above setup has served me well for 3 years and I've really loved it but I am noticing that Resolves upgrades are demanding more from my trusty steed and she's slowing down during edits when I apply colour grades and use certain tools like voice isolation. This is understandable but once it inhibits my ability to maneuver clips around the timeline smoothly, it becomes a problem.
But hey, the Z420 has been a wonderful servant and she owes me nothing at this stage.

So with this in mind, and my desire to do things on a budget (and keep things out of landfills while learning new stuff) I bought a HPZ820 as an upgrade along with another E5-2687W v2 (and the water cooling solution)
I got a lot of good info from this site https://www.greenpcgamers.com/hp/hp-models/hp-z820-gaming-computer-and-hardware-upgrade-guide/ about upgrading the GPU. And will most likely go with an RTX 3070.

My question relates to installing another GPU/GPUs. 
Now why would I want to do that, I hear you ask? Well, there RTX 3070, while definitely a step up from my 1660Ti

has a mere 8gb of VRAM.
Now, I am very much a beginner when it comes to this stuff, but by trawling the forums and reading many posts and help from your good selves, I have been slowly learning, along with making mistakes along the way.

From what I can glean, VRAM is good 🙂 The more the better! I was considering the ARC a770 16gb card but I read that it needs Rebar to be enabled and that that's not really possible on the HPZ820 without messing with the BIOS ( which I don't really want to do because I use these workstations for work, and I don't want to brick it)

So I thought hey, why not get an (relatively) old Quadro P5000 or even a P6000 or two  (with their generous VRAM) and have them in to do the heavy lifting and have the 3070 for display plus any functions that require it's newer architecture?

Now at this point I want to point out, (a) that I am not 100% sure what Resizeable bar is ( I did a google but it quickly began to seem like I didn't really need to know it unless I wanted to mess with the Z820s bios.
And  (b) the reason I mention the different GPU architecture is that I gather the newer Tensor cores are required for some of the new AI stuff in Resolve.

So it prompted a couple of questions for me

1) Does the Arc Card need rebar enabled because it has 16gb of VRAM? ie Would I be able to use the P5000/P6000 in the HPZ820? 
I suppose a broader question that would cover it is this : Does the HPZ820 have a limit in terms of the amount of VRAM a card can have to be compatible with it?

What's in my mind is get 2 x P5000s so that they would together have 32gb of VRAM and their power demands are well within the capacity of my machine ( I have the 1125W PSU 🙂
And then also have the 3070 in there for the more modern requirements of the software (and the odd game once I have my act together, I'm dying to try DCS but afraid to get sucked in a virtual world - this is less relevant to my question i know).

So that's it guys, my plan is to have the dual CPUs ( because in my ignorance, I'm thinking "more is better....more better")
64gb of RAM (still the 1600 I have - I'm not really into investing in the 1866mhz RAM because it's pretty expensive and while I am enjoying my learning on this HPZx20 journey, my funds are limited)

To make it neater and easier for you to read:
This is the rough plan pending your advice/wise counsel
Primary use = Video Editing using Davinci Resolve Studio Edition
2 x Xeon E5-2687W v2

64gb 1600mhz EEC RAM

SSD as the boot drive
Nvme as the project drive (with the footage/assets etc)
2 x Quadro P5000 16gb VRAM

1 x RTX 3070 or I could just stick with my existing 1660Ti.

What do you reckon? 
Thanks for your time, and thanks also for the huge amount that you contribute to the knowledge base for beginners/enthusiasts such as myself. 
I have read dozens of your responses and tips over the past 3 years and have dozens more bookmarked. 
It's been really useful and I appreciate it!

Best wishes
C

[DGroves]

rebar support is not going to be available on the Zx20 series of workstations as currently there is no way to modify the hp bios images short of using a eprom reader/writer and physically replacing the bios chip on the motherboard so if the intel card requires this feature then it's not a suitable card for this workstation series

next, adding a second card will not give you  double the vram........... it gives you two cards with each card having it's own non sharable video ram (which is why i recommend the 2080 TI card)

rather than using the RTX3070 look at the RTX2080 TI which has 12GB vram and is faster than the 3070/3070 TI in most capabilities

since the z820 has a onboard SATA/SAS controller that is now very outdated

consider installing a adaptec ASR-7805 SAS/SATA 8 port card that has SATA 3 6GBps and SAS 6GBps speeds

(if you need 12GBps SAS then the ASR-8xxx series should be looked into)

the 7805 card can do both JBOD and Raid at the same time just like the onboard controller but the 7805 is much faster which is important in audio/video editing  get the 7805 card with the optional cach/battery backup module if not using a backup battery (UPS) system

https://storage.microsemi.com/en-us/support/raid/sas_raid/sas-7805/

these cards are now on ebay for around 30-40 dollars on ebay you will also need 2 sets of "forward" cables and i highly recommend getting 4 sas/sata MALE to MALE adapters to allow the asr 7805 card to connect to the z820's internal 4 bay drive bays

https://www.newegg.com/p/2S7-01M4-016N7?item=9SIB5HEGPM1580&nm_mc=knc-googleadwords&cm_mmc=knc-googl...

last,  you might want to add a high end USB 3.0 card that allows all 4 usb ports to run at full speed at the same time

instead of a lowend cards "shared" usb ports that split the available 5GBps speed across all usb ports

i recommend the RocketU 1144 card which like the asr-7805 i've personally used

https://www.highpoint-tech.com/product-page/rocketu-1144f

[Cdon79]

DGroves, thanks for taking the time to get back to me and lending me the benefit of your wisdom.
I feel like I'm talking to the Oracle 
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I didn't realise that about the two cards being separate in terms of the VRAM allocation, but that makes sense. 
I do have a habit of assuming that things will work the way I hope, both in computers and life in general 😄

I chose the 3070 because of the Greenpcgamers article about upgrading the Z820 to a gaming rig.
They said to expect strong bottlenecking if using a 2080Ti but I guess the use case is different and for me it's the VRAM that's 

most important. So thanks for that pointer.
Great shout about the 7805, I hadn't considered that. The Greenpcgamers article recommended this one 
Dell 7GCGT Perc H710p 1GB Array ADTR SAS Controller but I'll go with your recommendation.
Would you have a link perhaps for those forward cables please? Or a part number? 
Is this the type of thing you mean? https://www.amazon.co.uk/YIWENTEC-Internal-SFF-8643-Target-Drive-8643-SATA-0-5M/dp/B07X6DJD3V/ref=as... 
Great shout also about the USB 3 Card. Again, I hadn't considered that.

Thanks again and best wishes

Conor

[DGroves]

The Adaptec ASR-7805 requires two internal mini SAS HD (SFF-8643) cables of the "forward" type

the SAS/SATA cable you link to will work fine as they state they are for directly connecting the controller card directly to a hard disk/SSD this is what a forward type cable is used for

 and FYI a "reverse" type cable is for connecting the controller card to a "storage backplane" which is a sort of a motherboard that has connectors for the drive 's data/power connectors to mate with

the z420/620/820 systems can all benefit from the upgraded ASR-7805/rocket USB 3 cards

just keep in mind that if using SAS drives, look for the 6GBps ones if doing drive intensive things that require fast data xfer rates if not needing this then slower 3GBps SAS drives can be used

the 7805 card does have basic SSD support but a raid 0 using high end performance ssd's can saturate  the cards bandwidth (normal non perf ssd's will not bump into the cards xfer limit)

update: RE dell Perc H710p is a low end sas/sata card based on the LSI chip that is not recommended for video usage

whereas the 7805 card was a high-end card in it's day supporting more raid levels battery backup and onboard cache with a much faster processor that allowed it to have a much faster sustained xfer rate

[Cdon79]

Hi DGroves,
Thanks for the part number for those cables. I found some now.
https://www.reichelt.com/ie/en/shop/product/sff-8643_sff-8643_1_0_m-354828?country=ie&CCTYPE=private...

So if I understand correctly, what you're saying is: the male to male go from the RAID card to the drive bays and ensure the higher SAS speeds? (drive dependant)
And the one that I linked is just from the RAID Card to individual drives themselves. 
That's good to know 🙏
Currently in the HPZ420 I am using a Samsung 870 EVO 1 TB as my C: drive and a couple of others (970+860) .
I use a pcie Nvme  for the project drive.
But I picked up one of those PM963 Nvme's to try and make a bootable Nvme  when do the upgrade (to the z820) but we'll see. It's a while since I read all the posts on how to do it etc so I'll have to refamiliarise myself.

I have a NAS (a Qnap TS-149L) to back up my stuff. It's an oldie but it still does the biz!

May I ask, is there any outlet/seller in particular you might recommend for the 2080Ti? 
Or is it just a bit of a dice roll when buying old GPUs what with mining use etc?

And, in your opinion, would there be any benefit to picking up one of those Quadros anyway to boost performance or is that just overkill for limited returns?
I've seen Modded 2080Tis for sale with double the VRAM but am wary of spending the cash 

Also, just in relation to my thinking the VRAM could be doubled with 2 cards of the same type. 
I think I was getting that impression from Nvidia NLINKing the 2 cards together or SLI but now I've read that that's not the case.

Thanks again for your time!

[DGroves]

the Zx20 line of workstations lack the necessary bios code to boot from nvme, and while there are some workarounds to allow this i no longer recommend them short of the OEM samsung 256/512GB "AHCI" based ssd's which are now becoming hard to find and overpriced instead i recommend a 1TB performance 2.5in SATA SSD attached to the ASR-7805 card

take your pick on the 2080 TI card the price should be around 200.00/260.00 do not consider a non TI as they only have 8GB ram

modded 24GB 2080 cards are expensive and used for "AI" modeling and way overkill for what you want to use the card for

the SAS/SATA adapters  are just that... simple male to male 7pin adapters that work with SAS or SATA protocols over a standard 7 pin data cable which again doesn't care if it's SAS or SATA protocol being xfered over the cable

[Cdon79]

Ok brilliant thank. Yep, I hear you on those AHCI ones, they've gone really dear.
2080Tis I've seen so far weight in around €400 but I'll keep looking.
Thanks again for everything, best of luck

Conor

(I haven't clicked the accept as solution bit yet as I would like to update the thread with the outcomes when I put the Z820 

togther - just for the benefit of others like me who are bumbling around this stuff!)

[DGroves]

if interested i can provide picts on benchmarking my z820's using the hardware i mentioned

you might also want to keep a eye on the lenovo p520 workstation using w-2135's (6 core) xeon cpu's 

in the us they sell on ebay for about 150.00 as complete systems with 900 watt pwr supply and ram

(minus the video card and HD) they are equal to the HP "Z4" line of workstations in most respects

FYI, forgot to mention the ASR-7805 card will require a 40mm/or a 50mm (which is a bit large) 4 pin PWM fan the fan can connect to the z820's motherboard unused white 4pin fan header located on the bottom of the motherboard by the lowest rear case pci-e slot

update: 1-11-25

here's my old benchmarks on several ssd's used in my z820 under the first win 11 releases before MS resolved sever small issues with xfer speeds on later win 11 builds

[Cdon79]

Hi Dgroves,
Thanks for getting back to me.
 I'd enjoy looking at those benchmarks thank you.
I am still learning but I gather with benchmarking, the higher the number the better 😅 and it will give me

an idea of what's possible/viable

I did the Puget Sound one on my Z420 last year, I must dig out the results.

Thanks for the heads up on the Lenovo P520. It sent me on a little ebay reconnaissance trip (with the associated googling the components tangents...) Looks like a real step up in terms of generation of technology and initially I thought, maybe I should just go that way now to future proof a bit ( and also questioning the wisdom of my spending more on the z820)

But for the moment, I am going to stay the course with the Z820, I'm committed now, as it's been under my desk beside the Z420 waiting for it's moment 🙂 As I say, I'm enjoying learning this stuff and keeping it out of landfill. 
And actually, bar the couple of things you've recommended ( ie the RAID & USB3 cards*)
It's pretty much ready to go. I just have a couple of video projects to finish before I migrate. 

<*and my eventual GPU upgrade of course which I can still transfer into a  Lenovo if I decide to upgrade later>

Circling back to our earlier message: after a deep dive last year about the bootable NVMe, I realise that I did in fact pick up one of the 256gb AHCI modules and a HPZ Turbo drive card so I'm going to try and go that way, put the OS and Davinci on that and see what performance I can wring out of the auld Z820! 

Great to know about the Lenovo though, I definitely have that beginner's tunnel vision with regard to the HP units, partly out of ignorance but there's definitely a strong affection & sense of loyalty for how well my Z420 has served me this past 5 years, and how economical it has been. When I started out, I thought I would have to spend thousands to get going and 

my more tech savvy friend said " No, no, no, I will show you the way of the HPZ" 😂

Thanks for the shout about the fan for the ASR-7805. Would something like these guys do the job?
40mm fan 

As always, I appreciate you generosity with your time, experience and advice.

Best wishes

Conor