Highest End Z400 Build

[SDH]

Impressive, and well though out.  Please keep us posted on how things work as the parts come in!

[nelsona]

Before going over my plans with some guys at another forum, do you see any issues or oversights with what I've proposed?

Thanks,

Nelson

[BambiBoomZ]

nelsona,

There are many very good suggestions and commetn in this thread.  I might add a couple of ideas based on experience with LGA1366 systems:

1.  The Xeon X5690 /W3690 6-cores @ 3.47 /3.73GHz do have the highest calculation density for LGA1366.  The highest Passmark average CPU mark fro the X5690 is 8936 and for the W3690 it's 9679. It's typical that CPU's made for dual use do not perform quite as well as the same specification single CPU as there are complications to synchromize the two sets of cores/threads. So, if your goal is a 6-core, a W3690 will do a bit better. 

2.  Also consider the   CPU single thread perofmance.  This will have a benefit in 3D applications- work and games included.  the highest single-thread mark is using the Xeon X5687 4-core @ 3.6 /3.86 - the highest clock speed LGA1366.  On Passmark, the top z400 /X5687 has a CPU score of 7363 and the single thread mark of the X5687 is 1577 as compared to X5690 with 1519  and W3690 at 1568/ again, the W3690 shows he benefit of using a single-processor configuration.

3. the RAM is triple channel so use RAM modules in sets of 3 and larger first. The best arrangment will be 6X 4GB of identical DDR3-1333. 

4.  There has some discussion of the disk system, but I would srecommend looking into used LSI 6GB/s RAID controller  (e.g. LSI MR9460-4i) to convert the disk to something resembling SATAIII and these also allow the use os SAS drives- sometimes 125 drives!   In my LGA1366 systems I use PERC H310's which are really LSI 9217's and the addition of the H310 in a Dell Precision T5500 alone changed the Passmark disk score using a Samsung 840 250GB SSD from 1940 to 2694.  But, I recommend the LSI 9260.

5.  Of course, significant benefit is derived from the GPU, but be aware of slightly adimishing return at the high end given the restrictions of the CPU to feed it. It's not LGA1366,  but a Quadro K4200 that makes a Passmark 3D mark of 4792 in an HP z420 only produced 4076 in a Precison 390 /Xeon X3230. On that note,  and based on consideration of the system value, I'm wondering if the GTX 1070 is the most sensible top end.  On Passmark the highest z400 3D score is 9443 from a GTX 980 (using a W3690)  and second is 8299 with a GTX 1060 (W3565).   For comparison,in z420, GTX 980 is 3D rated at 9563 and second is a GTX 1060 makes 8661. 

6.  I'm a bit confused by the discussion on drives in this thread,  but I think M.2 as a boot drive is not possible on a motherboard/.chipset /BIOS that doesn't support UEFi.  A quick scan of Passmark disk listing does not show M.2 as the boot drive. The top disk score for a z400 is 5448 and the disk listed is LSI MR9460-4i as the RAID controller hides ID of the actual drives.  The second fastest drisk is 4068 from a Samsung 850 Evo 500GB, and 3rd is 3918 by OCZARC100.  I'm sure if  M2. worked, there would be some very high scores.  In a z420 / E5-1660 v2, the Samsung SM951 AHCI 256GB scores 11559.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ

[nelsona]

Hello BambiBoomZ,

Thank you for the info on the W3690.

As for an M.2 as a bootable drive, you are correct that unless you have a UEFI motherboard, you won't be able to boot from most M.2 drives.

The thing about the Samsung 950 is that it has two BIOS' (a legacy BIOS and a UEFI BIOS), which is what it makes bootable (compared to other M.2's which don't have a legacy BIOS).

Nelson

[SDH]

I think we're getting closer to understanding why some M.2 PCIe SSDs will allow booting from older workstations and some won't.... see my post HERE which details that there are M.2 AHCI SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.  The Z600 motherboard that Brian has his M.2 AHCI SSD/PCIe adapter booting from is not a UEFI motherboard, and the ZX00 (and xw) generations of HP workstations all run only "legacy" BIOS.

http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-PCs-Workstations-and-Point-of-Sale-Systems/HP-WX4600/td-p/5811...

Nelson, I had no idea that the Samsung 950 M.2 SSD had the two types of BIOS built in..... so it might be able to work with the proper PCIe adapter in the Z400/Z600/Z800 in addition to possibly also in the xw workstations too.  Interesting.....

[nelsona]

Hello Scott,

This is the only reason both the Samsung 950 (and I hope the recently released 960) and Asus Predator HyperX are able to work on older systems.

I'm not sure of any other M.2 that offers legacy BIOS support, though there may be a few.

Nelson

[SDH]

Nelson,

There is a big difference in the engineering of the Kingston HyperX Predator M.2 PCIe SSD, an AHCI SSD (nothing to do with ASUS to my knowledge).  The controller on the PCB is an AHCI controller.

In the Samsung 950 Pro their approach is an option ROM built into card that supposedly emulates UEFI.... it is not that they have AHCI and AHCI BIOS built into the hardware.  Read the section in their white paper here HERE.

http://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/downloads/document/Samsung_SSD_950_PRO_White_paper...

Whether that is supported in the xw or the ZX00 generation of workstations is yet to be seen.  Maybe it will be wise of you to ensure that you can send things back if the 950 Pro does not work.  I have seen no posts where people report getting that M.2 SSD to work in the Z400/Z600/Z800 workstations.  You also might want to contact those Aussies at RamCity.com.au for some advice.

There was an earlier Samsung M.2 PCIe SSD that came in two versions, one of which was hardware based AHCI....

[BambiBoomZ]

SDH,

It wise to be careful with M.2 on HP worsktations before the zX40 series. 

I'm using M.2 drives in a  z420 and z620.  The z420 uses a Samsung SM951 256GB on an M.2 to PCIe adatper (Lycon DT-120) and the z620 is an HP Z Turbo Drive, also SM951-based.  The other important feature in common is that they are AHCI, which apprently still need to be the case if they are used as the boot drive.  Both oF these systems have UEFI BIOS and the drives installed and were recognized and usable immediately.  The Z Turbo was from an unused z230 and when I connected and started it, in a few seconds it displayed the Windows  7 screen: "Using your computer for the first time."  The HP OEM Windows apparently automatically activated.

It is GPT formatted by the way which is very welcome- I wanted to gradually shift everything over from MBR to GPT as I'm partition oriented as a kind of filing system: active projects / libraries / media / archive / system recovery / etc.

However with zX00 series, looking through Passmark systems baselines for z400. z600, .z800, which total almost 1,800 systems tested, there are only two using M.2.  These are z800 and both use Samsung SM951 AHCI.  There are number using other PCIe drives- OCZ Revodrives  though, not M.2. 

A poster here did update his z620 to UEFI and uses a SM951 and with the Passmark Listings, it must be possible on the z800 at least.  I have been looking for results for NVMe on zX20 systems and did find  a z420 and z820 using SM951 NVMe and two Intel 750 ()400GB and 1.2TB)  but still very rare.

With the Z400, z600,z7800, it seems that with updating to UEFI they can then can use M.2 AHCI,  and if the Samsung 950 Pro has a special onboard legacy BIO, UEFI module, or whateve reuired, that would be a very welcome technology.

I do wish Samsung would provide clear descriptions /list / directions for compatibility and installation regarding NVMe . - Perhaps I'/ve missed it.  The HP zTurbo Drive probably workied instatly as the support site documentation is very good and apparently the drive has been optimized for HP z. In the listing for the  Z Turbo drives that are NVME, HP clearly states that they are for the zX40 series.

Cheers,

BambiBoomZ 

[SDH]

BambiBoomZ,

Chaos reigns on this topic..... there is so much to learn and so much mixture of correct and incorrect informaton.  Please note that the comment "With the Z400, Z600, Z800 it seems that with updating to UEFI they can then can use M.2 AHCI"  is incorrect.  These "ZX00" workstations do not now nor will they ever have a UEFI BIOS.  These will always only run on good old legacy BIOS, as will all the earlier xw generation of HP workstations.  The Z420/620/820 workstations, however, can swing both ways.... you can use legacy BIOS mode (which I do) or  choose to use UEFI BIOS mode.

It is my understanding that a M.2 SSD with a NVMe type of on-board controller in a PCIe slot adapter needs to have BIOS run in UEFI mode before it can work as a boot drive.  That is not the case if the M.2 SSD has an on-board controller that is AHCI type.  Those generally at least have a chance of running as a boot drive on a HP workstation that is running with BIOS in legacy mode (either by choice or by fact of its BIOS only available in legacy mode).

What lets Brian run the Kingston HyperX Predator M.2 PCIe SSD as a boot drive in his Z600, via its passive M.2-to-PCIe adapter, is the fact that its particular Kingston M.2 SSD's on-board controller is the AHCI type.  Kingston chose a Marvell 88SS9293 second generatin controller that allows use of 4 instead of only 2 PCIe lanes simultaneously for max throughput, and it also seems to be more compatible with various motherboards.  Therefore it can be seen in the Z600 BIOS as a bootable drive, and can be selected for that purpose from within BIOS.  Please see Brian's BIOS boot order picture  HERE with that Kingston M.2 drive at the top.

http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-PCs-Workstations-and-Point-of-Sale-Systems/PCIe-SSD/td-p/55733...

Some M.2 AHCI type SSDs seem to be more compatible than others, and from my research Brian seems to have hit the sweet spot.  We'll get this figured out eventually, and as always thanks for your excellent input.

[SDH]

To wrap up this thread.... 

The Kingston Predator M.2 PCIe SSD works great in my Z400 and Z600 workstations just as long as I use a specific storage controller driver, as detailed  HERE.  I now am using multiple of these Predators in different HP workstaitons...... they provide a noticeable speed boost over fast SSDs.

I even have had them working in a xw6400 and xw6600 workstations.  To maximize their speed they should be inserted into a PCIe generation II slot with at least 4 "lanes".  That is not present in a xw6400 because all of its PCIe slots are generation 1.  There are two PCIe generation 2 slots present in a xw6600, the two PCIe x16 slots usually thought of as for video cards.  If you are running only one video card in a xw6600 it should be inserted into the upper of those two PCIe x16 slots, adn that leaves the second (lower) PCIe generation 2 slot available for the Predator's  M.2 PCIe adapter.

If you are running two video cards in the Z400 or Z600 (as I am) there still is a spare PCIe2 x4 slot you can use  for the Predator's PCIe slot adapter.

This particular card/adapter has worked great.  The Predator has an AHCI controller built into its M.2 card's PCB, and thus is able to run on workstations running "legacy" bios.  The same attempts by me have not been successful with the Samsung SM951 AHCI version... I spent a week trying to get that to work, with no success in the xw 6400, xw6600, Z400 and Z600 workstations.

The Kingston Predator M.2 PCIe SSD is well worth the cost, and for me I only need the 240GB size, plus I am now using a larger sized SSD as my documents drive so that I have maximum possible I/O speeds for this hardware.  This combination is very fast.