Battery drain when shut-down (HP Spectre x360)

[EMM_ELL]

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@mAlan22 wrote:

 I had to open this to stop the trackpad from rattling which requires battery removal. 

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My trackpad rattles a bit too... was this hard to do?  Similar in concept to the fix for the previous Gen x360 whereby one slips a piece of tape into trackpad to take up the slack in the button mechanism?

[RadicalDad]

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@pqkiller666 wrote:

 Secondly, if the highest battery drop occurs at the highest storage temperature ... then the storage temperature for let's say the first 20 minutes to 1 hour is at 65 degrees celcius then the discharge rate is going to be very high and then this tapers off as the temperature drops but alas the damage/discharge has already occurred.

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Now you are just guessing and making stuff up to prove your point.  There is no claim on the Battery University link you supplied (or anywhere else for that matter) that initial storage temperature affects the self discharge rate hours later.  But let's assume your claim is true.  In that case, we should see a self-discharge rate of 12% (or 3%, or whatever number you want to use) in the first hour.  Absolutely no one has reported such results.

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@pqkiller666 wrote:

Thirdly, most of the people reporting laptops at 100% have sent their laptops to HP for repair ... and not simply after applying the Sphinx Fix.

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And this proves your point ... how?  Actually, this is exactly what I said.  Point being, if it is possible to maintain the charge rate at 100% after 24 hours in shutdown by means of a repair - any repair - then your arguments about reductions below full charge being a normal and expected characteristic of any battery are disproven.  Obviously some batteries don't do this.  The more logical conclusion would be that we aren't seeing normal self-discharge, but instead there is a circuit in the laptop which is discharging the battery, and the HP repair fixes that.

[op1001]

Out of the five i had  - 3 trackpad rattled.

4 laptops lower left and right bottoms of the screen made some clicking noises.. like the glass or whatever was not glued properly.

--------- SIDE note..

So in my BIOS f.11 i have USB charging off..  does this only turn off USB C charging off ? like if we plug a phone in it won't charge? or all USB ports?

because i plugged my phone in the USB a (left side) while the laptop was off, and it started charging..

[pqkiller666]

In regards to your point RadDad about having to see 12% discharge in the first hour for my point to be correct...

Maths is not your strong point is it?

If the storage temperature is high for the first hour, then you will see that hour's percentage of the full first 24 hours (ie 1/24th) discharge rate at the same temperature ONLY since after that the temperature has reduced to a point where the discharge rate is less.

It looks like I am making it up because you don't understand what I am saying.

If, over 24 hours the battery is, at 25 degrees celcius estimated to lose 15 % of its capacity, then each hour the battery is inclined to lose an average of 0.625 of a percent per hour, if the discharge rate was a constant (which we know it isn't otherwise the first 24 hours would be no different from the remainder of the time and the normal functioning battery would just lose charge until it is dead), so the discharge rate has to be a reverse exponential, losing more at the start of the 24 hours than the end... but let's just pretend it's constant for the sake of explanation.

At 65 degrees celcius, or the 'switch off' temperature, the discharge rate is 35% over the first 24 hours if the temperature was constant, meaning the battery would be discharging at a rate of 1.45 % per hour, assuming the rate was level (which it isn't as stated above, but again... let's pretend).

So the first hour at the higher temperature causes a drop of 1.45 % in the battery capacity and then 0.625 or slightly less for a cooler temperature per hour for the first 24 hours.

So... 1.45 + (0.625 x 6) + (0.312 x 17)(to account for a temperature of 15 degrees celcius after the first 6 hours for those in winter months) = 10.504 % drop in the first 24 hours...

Users are reporting 12%....

We know that the discharge rate is not constant (it HAS to be quicker at the start when the battery is fully charged and drop off over the first 24 hours, logic dictates this)...

We know that not everyone is experiencing winter right now (its 40 degrees celcius outside where I am)...

We know that I have been generous with the figures above, even giving a storage temperature well below most people's internal house temperatures regardless of the time of year provided they can afford heating which the ownership of a laptop indicates they can...

Maths doesn't lie.

Maybe the HP fix is just another battery indicator misrepresentation, after all, I don't see anyone posting the MwH from the battery report as part of those reports of a fix, nor is there any quality check on their anecdotal evidence to say they aren't freezing their laptops after receiving them... Obviously highly unlikely...

I don't doubt there is probably some issue with the batteries in the laptops... hence my third point.

But if anyone cares to show how the maths above is somehow wrong, in light of what the battery experts at Battery University have written then please show me where my calculations are incorrect...

Furthermore... Many Many MANY users here have reported that their battery goes from 100% to 94% in a matter of minutes when the laptop is turned on... that's a drop of 6% in the first hour... granted the laptop is switched ON so it is no longer a self discharge but let's halve that number or quarter it or divide it by six... Oh right we already showed that in the first bit... you know... with the maths.

[RadicalDad]

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pqkiller666 wrote:

Maths is not your strong point is it?

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Oh, I understand the math.  The problem is you don't seem to understand basic logic.  Your very impressive and overly long mathematical explanation is moot because, as I explained before, the batteries and Spectre x360 systems are not consistently displaying the self-discharge behavior you are describing.

Within this thread:

• Some users have repaired systems with no battery discharge after 24 hours.
• Some users note that in the sleep state (which does use battery), the discharge rate is less than the discharge rate when the system is in the shutdown state.  And to our point here, the discharge rate in sleep is less than the self-discharge rate shown in your very elegant equations.
• Then there is my own case, where my "repaired" machine now shows no discharge in shutdown, but suspiciously has exactly the same discharge rate as before the repair when in hibernation.

Finally, one would expect the self-discharge problem to have affected non-HP systems in similar ways.  As one of my previous posts has shown, that is not the case.

No need for maths.  Simple logic shows that self-discharge cannot be the problem.  Instead, it becomes quite clear that electrical circuits are improperly left on in shutdown and hibernation states, and that these are draining the battery at different rates.  Moreover, the differing discharge rates are too self-consistent by scenario type and too different from each other that all could be accounted for by self-discharge.  Need I say it again, these varying (and self-consistent) scenarios do not match your self-discharge calculation.

If you want to make yet another long-winded, erudite, and ultimately illogical post, go for it.  I'm done playing this game.

[pqkiller666]

One of your previous posts has 'shown'.

One man's experiential anecdotal account does not 'show' anything except perhaps a possibility.

Mainly my point was that HP's batteries after the Sphinx fix were behaving far better than any lithium ion battery is supposed to work... And that any number of battery technology related problems could have contributed to the problem...

Similarly you have failed to prove that the supposed displayed 100% is actually not a software display account because again, I see no quoting of mWh as matched with percentages in any accounts... Least of all the supposed accounts which prove or 'show' anything...

Apparently we are all supposed to just accept a few assumptions based on your 'logic' and some anecdotal accounts and ignore the expert opinion,and half the ma thematic facts...

Furthermore nearly everything you have quoted as having been mentioned in this thread is incorrect or made up or contradictory to your previous posts...

Most people who cannot make a point give up early... That much is self evident

[Rufufu]

Does someone has already tried this solution, that can be found here for the same issue for dell laptop after windows 10 update :

 https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/50yikj/laptop_battery_drains_when_shut_down/

Go to Device manager > System devices > Intel Management Engine Interface > (right click) > Properties

In power management : Uncheck the option that let's the driver control shut-down.

I am trying it, but need the laptop now so cannot make long shotdown test...

[Bottomsup1]

@Rufufu don't waste your time. Won't solve this issue.

[RadicalDad]

My Spectre x360 (late 2016) was "repaired" by HP.  It no longer discharges while shut down, but it discharges at the same rate in hibernation as it did in shutdown before the repair.  Anyone else seeing the same thing?

Is there any way to fix that, or do I just give up on HP and buy something else?

[jee82]

@RadicalDad What was the HP fix? New battery or the firmware update?