HP Z800 Configuring from scratch

[DGroves]

that HP statement was true when the xw 66/8600series workstations were released

but it's no longer a issue for  newer drives made after 2012 as the newer drives firmware have this fix built in by the drive vendor and motherboard makers have resolved all known drive related SATA 3/6GBps issues

when the xw6600/8600 were released the industry was just begining to move over to the SATA 3 6GBps spec

and as such there were some issues between drive makers firmware and motherboard Bios implementations

HP still specifies HP drives using custom firmware on some workstations/servers , but for the most part current

workstations and some low end servers now ship with drives using retail firmware. these drives are still OEM in that any warranty comes from the OEM Vender and not the drive maker IE- running the drives serial will return a contact OEM msg

[Mr_Spancilhill]

Hi All, I am configuring a similar system to this and this thread has been very helpful.

I have all my research done and it's quite similar, Just wondering about thoughts on...

1.Getting the pci express 3.0 version of HyperX Predator ? It's backwards compatible, just want to take the card with me if I move on from this pci express 2.0 motherboard ?

2.Is it necessary to get an HP usb 3 card, or any other brand do the job, is there a compatibility/drivers issue here ? 

3.The build in hard drive caddys have sata cables out the back but they are short, All ok to get extension cables to connect to a new SATA 3 pci express card...  dont' see any reason why not ? Can't find any reason I shouldn't get the SATA 3 speed and have them tidy install using the BlindMates and built in caddies etc.

I might put SSDs in the 5.25 inch bays and keep the x4 3.5 inch spots for backup drives that I can plug in and out, so easy with hpz800 and is quite tidy.

My HD config.

os - HyperX M.2

Data - SSD 240

Cache - SSD 120

Backup/Other  - Firecuda SSHD - Cheap Hybrid

Backup/Other  - Firecuda SSHD - Cheap Hybrid  (Offline backup)

Thanks for any thoughts here before I buy the components...

[DGroves]

while i do not have the kingiston ssd, (i have the HP ssd) i see no reasion for it not to work in the z800 pcie 2.0  although it will be a bit slower

it's recomended to use the HP usb card from the z820 as it's a later revision than the z800 and has the correct header

for the front usb cable. while you can use any usb card that has 2 rear and a header connector for the front 2, the build quality on some of the cheap cards is questionable to say the least also the 'TI" texas insturments usb chip is considered one of the best and is what i would recomend

in my z800 i have a dell perc 810 SAS/SATA card which uses the same chip as the z820 this card is connected to the  4 drive bays and also a data SSD it gives me SATA three 6GBps speeds i use two  SFF-887  cables  from the perc, each cable has four normal SATA/SAS connectors which have a male to male adapter attached so i can connect the 4 drive bay cables to the perc cable

if you go for the SATA pci-e card, look for one that uses two pci-e chanels instead of one, as this card can reach and sustain sata 6GBps unlike the one chanel pci-e cards that can only come close to the sata 3 speed spec inburst mode

if you are a heavy user of USB, (which i am) i strongly recomend a USB card with a multiplexer chip on it. these cards are able to provide full usb 3.0 xfer speeds to each port at the same time. normal usb cards share the speed between all ports

i would look for the 

StarTech I/O Controller PEXUSB3S44V HighPoint RocketU 1144C

they show up on ebay sometimes for around 50.00

[Mr_Spancilhill]

Thanks for the reply... and all the advice on this thread is really wonderful.

1.Found out the PCIe III version the KC1000 is nvme, so won't work on z800, afaik.

2.I wouldn't go with the card for usb you recommend as want an internal port to

connect to the front of the unit.

Thanks for the advice on the x2 PCIe channels, although when shopping its hard to find that detail... 

In terms of the usb card found a cheap one that has the multiplexers on it... 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inateck-Superspeed-Ports-PCI-Expansion/dp/B00B6ZCNGM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid...

[But no interal connection on this one, cheap though.]

4.Looking at Startech x4 port pcie sata III controller but disappointed with reviews online...  crystaldisk mark = around 380mb/s read from 550mb/s ssds . . .  would lead me to believe buy a x2 port controller over a RAID or x4 port SATA ||| controller... would really appreciate any recommendations on PCIe cards ?

Thanks a lot

Alan.

[DGroves]

the usb card you linked to is a normal usb card that shares the bandwidth  (5GBps) between all ports,

and if you try copying/writing to several hard drives connected to this card at the same time you will see a massive slowdown

it is not the same as a usb card that has a "PLX" chip on it, this card will provide  max usb 3.0 speeds  to each port at the same time (which is why this card costs so much) 

RocketU HBA’s deliver true 5Gb/s per-port performance, and can support any USB drive on the market. Revolutionary USB 3.0 performance Dedicated 5Gb/s per-port transfer rates and a total bandwidth of 20Gb/s! 

if you require front usb three ports the rocket card is also available in a 2 port model.

i took the 2 port model, replaced the mounting bracket with one that had no port cutouts, and soldered a usb internal connector/wires to the card's 2 ports so it  can connect to a front mounted usb 

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA_new/cs-series_RocketU1144A-Series.htm

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA_new-testRS/series_RocketU1122.htm

https://www.cnet.com/au/products/highpoint-rocketu-1144a/review/

the Startech x4 port pcie sata III controller, is a pci-e x1 card it is  "NOT" a x2 pci-e card. pay attention to the description,

it says requires x4 slot, not that it uses a x2/x4 connection

true pci-e x2 cards:

Marvell 88SE9230 Chipset single chip 4-port Gen III 6Gb/s host controller.

Each PCI-Express 2.0 lane provides up to 500Mb/s of throughput.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Generic-40057-4-Port-SATA-III-PCIe-2-0-x2-HyperDuo-Raid-Controller-Card/162...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCI-e-PCI-Express-x2-Slot-Controller-Card-SATA-III-2-External-2-Internal-4-...

last, the samsung 960 SSD (which is nVME) will work on a z800, as it includes the nessary "legacy" oproms

which include the nessary nVme boot code, as you have noticed most nvme ssd's do not include the legacy oproms

you can also use the samsung sm951 (SATA version), while sata it is only a bit slower than the  nVme 951 model 

[SDH]

The Kingston Predator PCIe interface card using its AHCI-controller M.2 SSD posted about HERE and HERE is the way to go for you.  We have that working in multiple Z600/Z400 workstations, and the driver solution I discovered has worked rock solid now for over a year in all HP ZX00 workstations it is in.  The HP Z Turbo Drive Gen I card, also having an AHCI-controller, won't work in these earlier workstations..... we tried.

It is clear DGroves has the understanding and solutions that are master level for your questions.  A step back from that is what we have done (lower level needs here for our USB3 solutions).  That is, use the Texas Instruments HP USB3 card I have posted in detail about HERE in the forum.  A nice front interface solution is provided in that post, but I think there is even a better solution I have not had the time yet to install. 

Which is..... there is information out that the front interface cable for the Z620 fits perfectly into the Z600 so that one can use that cable's front USB3 connectors out front in the Z600.  When I did my usual eBay research on the same idea for the Z800 accepting a Z820 front interface cable it looks like a perfect fit also.  The Z820 cable is longer than the Z620 cable, so you'd want the longer one for your Z800.  You'd end up with the top USB port out front being black USB2 and the lower two being blue USB3, plus two USB3 ports on the rear backplane of the HP USB3 card.  The 5.25" bay adapter would not be used.

EDIT:  I got all the way to buying a Z620 front I/O cable, with the 2 USB3 blue ports and the one USB2 top black port and got my Z600 apart in prep for transplanting that cable in, and got all but the USB parts installed, and then realized that the USB plug was not a plug and play issue.  I found an old archived post from Dan_WGBU, our favorite helpful HP engineer, explaining that HP had designed in special amplifiers for the two USB3 ports in this I/O cable, and that power to those comes from the Z620's motherboard header pins, and would not be available from the Z600 or from the HP TI-based USB3 card.  Lots of special engineering went into that, and the result is that this idea is a dead end.  Too bad, but the alternative methods of using that specific card in the ZX00 workstations works great.

The "2x2" HP USB3 card we use has a motherboard-type header to attach the Z620 or the Z820 front interface cable's USB3 plug into (rather than it plugging into the same type header present on the Z420/Z620/Z820 motherboards).  Swapping in that front interface cable is a bit more of a project than my original method, which you can see in the Z800 picture below (modified from the image provided earlier by the OP).  Note that I have not yet personally tested the front interface cable mod, but have read that it works fine.

That longer cable is  "Cable assy front IO Z820", with spares and assembly part numbers 684578-001 671715-002.

[DGroves]

I had considered the HP usb 3.0 card and the z820 cable, but in my case due to the heavy usb 3 demands  i make on the system (it's used to to do sequential snapshot video backups of the main Arrays) i went with the rocket card which is a bit over kill for most users. the solution you propose is what most people should consider. however i have one question

the xw/z workstation lines will post a bios message about a missing usb port at boot if the hp cable is not connected as i recall

if i am remembering correctly short of connecting a 1k resistor between the correct usb motherboard header pins

how would you make the boot msg disappear? 

[Mr_Spancilhill]

Thank you all for sharing knowledge. The more I read the more I realise how much there is to know. ps. doing a lot of learning and reading so please excuse any ignorance.

1.I have begun to look out for PCIe v2.0  x4 lanes or x2 lanes depending on amount of data going through ther ports.

And see that the more expensive, server type seem to be the ones to go for - thanks.

2.I have the HP usb 3,  I actually have that at work computer and getting 110mb/s out to normal external drives, not SSD. So will probably pick one up for this pc I am configuring.

3.I didn’t know about the Bios on some of the NVMEs, thanks. If you wouldn't mind posting a link or two ? re which ones exactly,  (sm951 and 960 SSD) I see there are different revisions and EVO and PRO etc.

Would this work...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-MZ-V6E250BW-250GB-Express-Solid/dp/B01M211K53/ref=pd_sim_147_1?_enc...

4.Nice idea with the 820 lead out to the existing usb2 ports replacement. However don't think it matters for me as Ill be purchasing a combi-  5.25 ssd bay with a couple of USB 3 PORTS on it anyway, so might as well leave the USB 2.0 ports alone. 

5. Find the Hyperx predators hard enough/expensive to find online . . . anybody got experience of the KC1000 on a Z800? That's NVME too but maybe it has legacy bios onboard too? 

6. Interesting review of the Hyperx vs other solutions including the Samsung sm951 (Most other reviews just say AMAZING! )

http://www.pcgamer.com/kingston-hyperx-predator-480gb/

So finally! I know what PCIe Sata controller to pick up and then can follow up with SSDs. Then think Ill just get a 4T internal HD to run as a backup drive, and get an external USB 3.0 ssd as an offline.

[DGroves]

this site is possibly (in my opinion) one of the best for SSD information, they have several ssd articles

https://www.ramcity.com.au/blog/m.2-ngff-ssd-compatibility-list/189

*******The 960 Pro/Evo only works in chipsets that support NVME:********

the samsung 950 series is the one that  has legacy oprom support not the 960  sorry for the mixup

i use/have z800 / z820 / z840 systems and forgot the 960 only works as a boot drive in the 820 / 840

i would not bother with ANY NVME SSD THAAT ONLY SUPPORTS 2 PCI-E lanes for the z820/640

they are no faster than a SATA/AHCI based performance SSD in normal usage

if you can afford it, a x4 PCI-E based ssd is the way to go and the PCI--# 3.0 ssd's will work on a pci-e 2.0 bus but will be a bit slower

SDH has personal experence with the kingston SSD, so you might want to follow his advice

btw, my first SSD in a z800 was a PCI-e x2 card using a marvell chipset that supported up to 4 mSATA SSD'S

it was similar to this card on ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDNA-PCIe-4X-Quad-mSATA-SSD-RAID-Controller-Card-RAID-0-1-10-Marvell-with/...

i bought it because it allowed me to have  a raid-0  and a raid-1 array that exceeded SATA III 6GBps speeds

the card is obselete nowadays from a performance standpoint but still has limited use as it supports SSD'S in Raid

for people who need data protection

[SDH]

DGroves and I probably are much alike right now..... more curiosity than time.  I'll not be able to do the Z620 front I/O interface cable transplant into one of my Z600s for a while, so I can't prove it works yet (but have read the info that it does, and there was no indication of a F1 stop due to not having USB cable attached).

The pic below and added info will make sense to DGroves..... this is the Z620 cable I'll use in my Z600.  I've checked the pinouts and all match except USB (as you'd expect):

EDIT:  I got all the way to buying a Z620 front I/O cable, with the 2 USB3 blue ports and the one USB2 top black port and got my Z600 apart in prep for transplanting that cable in, and got all but the USB parts installed, and then realized that the USB plug was not a plug and play issue.  I found an old archived post from Dan_WGBU, our favorite helpful HP engineer, explaining that HP had designed in special amplifiers for the two USB3 ports in this I/O cable, and that power to those comes from the Z620's motherboard header pins, and would not be available from the Z600 or from the HP TI-based USB3 card.  Lots of special engineering went into that, and the result is that this idea is a dead end.  Too bad, but the alternative methods of using that specific card in the ZX00 workstations works great.

FireWire:  I don't use that but do have an external USB/eSATA/FW drive that I'll be able to test connectivity once I do the transplant.  Wires/headers all identical between my Z620 and Z600 here at home.

Mic & Headphones:  Same wires and pinouts.

USB3 card and its "motherboard" header:  In the ZX20 that dual USB3 cable plugs into the bottom motherboard header instead of the USB3 card.  There is more than enough slack.  Those two USB3 thick cables come over to the square heavy black device, sealed, and then come out and into the front I/O interface you see.  That is heavy and thus at least there are ferrite cores in there.  Plus, more.

USB2 connector:  This is different from the Z400/Z600/Z800, which have 3 total USB2 cables running from its orange plug to its front I/O interface.  This Z620 one has a standard 5-pin row (the up side here) and those have the standard USB2 colors/wiring that HP has used for years.  The "down" side has room for 4 pins and the "blank" spot to ensure proper orientation.  That does not have normal USB2 wiring.  It has 4 thin wires, 2 orange and two another color.  Those run over to the square ferrite core device and enter there with the thick two USB3 cables.  I put thin blue tape tabs so you can see that run and where it inserts into the ferrite core device (white arrow tip).  My guess is that those dead end in the ferrite core device, possibly having the resistors you mention.

My gut instinct is that HP may actually have planned to offer this option with front USB3 connectivity in the Z400/Z600/Z800, via the TI based 2x2 card, but that never came to fruition.  Maybe not.... but the motherboard trigger for the F1 stop you refer to is from not seeing a USB2 connection, and this method with dead ending one side of that main USB2 header and keeping the other side functional up front works great in the Z620 series and would let the ZX00 workstation's motherboards see one USB2 cable connected.  I'll just have to prove it in the Z600 when I have time.

The Z400/Z600/800 each has a HP proprietary orange header that uses the normal 5 + 4 pin orientation for the first two USB2 cables, plus has 4 added clustered pins at one end for the third total front USB3 cable: