HP Z800 Upgrade with Titan Xp or Quadro M5000? Power Upgrade? Cooling Upgrade?

[Prettypicgirl]

Good advice again. Thanks!

Any idea how many slots I have on the Z800? Will the power connectors fit?

I found this. But, honestly I am overwhelmed:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wGRZ-5sl7G9DhIgwW36g2KnrwVfZqBW7GDKHOd2vbaM/edit#gid=0

While I can narrow it down a bit, but regarding performance/systems its over my head.
Maybe you can help me for a last time?

So far we know the following:

1080Ti is wanted

250Watt is minimum on 1080TI we do not want more

Max 2 slots should be blocked

Mainstream manufacturer desirable

Very good cooling is desirable (without complication of water cooling if possible)


I might move the cards to a new 820 later.

Cheers,

Pretty

[DGroves]

the stock 850 watt supply has only two  6 pin GPU connectors the 1150 watt supply has 3

if i recall right the z800 has 2  full x16 pci-e slots ( i should remember this as i have a z800/820) but forget at the moment

dl the HP service manual for the z800 it answers many questions people have about these systems

http://h50146.www5.hp.com/lib/doc/manual/workstation/hp_workstation/504632_001.pdf

[Prettypicgirl]

Uuups, you were faster 😉

Regarding pins, The 1080Ti needs 1x6 1x8 at minimum. Still there are adapters for that and I am willing to try with one.

https://www.amazon.de/Express-6pin-Grafikkartenadapter-Good-Connections%C2%AE/dp/B000KYA0A6

Regarding slots it says in the manual:

"...

Graphics

This workstation supports PCIe Gen2 (PCIe2) bus speeds and can support dual PCIe Gen2 graphics cards in PCIe2 x16 slots. With the standard 850W power supply, the workstation an support up to two 150W graphics cards. A second graphics card may be supported in the second PCIe2 x16 slot, subject to overall system power limitations. With the optional 1110W power supply, the workstation can support up to two high power (~225W) graphics cards...."

The power packs one can get provide up to 1250watt so I guess all options are open for one (and possibly later 2 1080Ti.

[Prettypicgirl]

Here is my narrowed down selection following these thoughts:

-1080Ti is wanted

-250Watt is minimum on 1080TI we do not want more

-Max 2 slots should be blocked

-Mainstream manufacturer desirable

-Very good cooling is desirable (without complication of water cooling if possible)

Any thoughts on these? Are there some "Nono's" or some standing out as especially goodfrom your point of view?

I really do not know which would be a good choice in terms of cooling & longevity.

Thanks SO much for your help.

[DGroves]

only thing i see is the wattage line, it should read "1080 with no more than 180 watts"

your rendering program will most likely not benefit from a 1080TI to make the cost diffrence between the standard 1080

and the "TI" model a worthwhile option, same for the 1080 factory overclock models

the only diffrence between the TI/non TI cards that may impact you is vRam ,..the TI model has 1GB more but the cost for that extra GB is fairly large, i think the money would be better spent towards buying the second 1080 

ask in the rhino/vray forums they will be able to give you a detailed answer ia to what is best at this time

[Prettypicgirl]

Hi,

I believe I found a decent solution to power the 1080 graphic card(s), which even adds the option to add a second one later.
According to Vrays lead developer Vray (my rendering engine)  can use the full CUDA power without the need for a SLI connection between two cards.
Remember, I want to buy great cards now and continue to use them later in 1-2 years in an Z820 or similar.

The issue stopping me so far is the existing  Z800 power supply unit.
Upgrading to the stronger internal HP 1250Watt powerpack (input 235V) has drawbacks:

-Hugely expensive, approx 503€
-A number of indications on the web that they are prone to fail due to a design flaw

-Not enough and right connectors for the graphics card (I will eventually need 4x 8Pin)

so the solution is to use a separate external 600Watt ATX psu for the cards only. The cards need 250watt each. Which leaves 100watt reserve. System power still comes from the regular internal power supply.

Positive:
-Cost of 600Watt ATX psu is about 65€
-4x 8Pin power supply
-Extra heat is dissipatated outside the Z800 housing

Negative:

-Extra housing

-Need way to branch off ATX power good signal from HP power unit

The later is still an issue, as all cables I could source so far take all signals from the connector. No HP to HP to ATX Y cables.
I think of hacking the memory power supply cable for this and solder 2 cables to it which terminate in an ATX connector.
This is only needed to signal the external power unit that the system is powered up and it can supply power to the graphics cards.

Do you know by any chance of which pins on the HP Z800 memory board power connector I could branch off the two cables for the ATX connector?

Thanks,

Pretty

[DGroves]

while your idea sounds workable, consider this.... just how many business computers do you see with a  seperate ATX supply hanging off the computer? also the added steps of rembering to  power on the aux supply before the main system and sleep/hybernation/cabling issues are reasions why you don't see people who use their systems to make a living go this route

with the above said, there are however custom power supplies made for the 5.25 bays  for powering things like graphic cards that will auto power on/off/sleep with the system supply,....but they cost almost as much as a upgraded HP supply so there is not really a valid reasion to go this route

i will again remind you that there is no benefit in buying a TI based model as opposed to a non TI the extra cost will not be recouped since the speed diffrence between the two in your applications is almost nil while the price diffrence is not

and the normal 180 watt cards will work without issues while two of the 250/280 watt TI based cards will  possibly cause problems with the upgraded hp supp[ly

remember, a system that is used for work needs to be reliable 24/7 and what you propose is not the way to achieve this

[Prettypicgirl]

Good thoughts again, though I am not quite convinced this time 😉  Thanks for all your help anyway!!!

Regarding the looks of a separate psu outside I do not mind that at all. All I care for is that it works reliable.
The whole machine lives and works under my table & I am the only person using it.
For resale its not an issue either, detach the external PSU, replace the 1080ies with the current Quadro & sell.
If someone wants the whole system with the extra cards that would be no hinderance either.

The ATX connection will make sure the external PSU starts up automatically once the internal PSU is on. Thats the point why this ATX "power good" signal connection is important (apart from that an external PSU should not be run without load.)

I heard of the separate psu units for the hard drive bays, still they are typically low power and give the heat off INSIDE the machine. Not good in my eyes.
Regarding the extremly expensive higher powered HP psu, they have no good reputation when it comes to reliability and, they do not have the right connectors & power for the higher powered cards.

If I find out how to pass on the "Power good" signal I will test the external psu solution with the exsisting Quadro. If it works I can get the 1080(ies). The external psu costs 65€ while the internal HP upgrade would cost 8x as much.
For the same cost I can almost get the second 1080....

Regarding Ti or not Ti,  Vray's lead developer stated that the Ti performs 35% faster in his tests with the software.
Still regarding the price I consider dual 1080 vs 1080Ti.
Of course the Ti speed would be best used later, after a machine upgrade with faster PCI bus.
Undecided yet betweenTi or not Ti.

On to find the solution for the "power good signal".


Thanks, Pretty

[DGroves]

how it looks is the least of the issues with this soultion you need to be carefull you don't turn on/off the z800 before the aux supply, you need to try keeping the aux supply's power cord from comming loose, you need to somehow find room next to the z800 that is within the aux supply's power leads to the video cards, you need to make sure the leads going to the cards don't get any stress and pull out the card from the pci-e slot are the above items convincing? if not i can go on

i also use my z800/z820 systems to make a living, and i value rock solid operation above all else and as such i'm not interested in trying to get 5-10 percent more performance at the expenseof any reliability

you also mention the z800 had power supply issues. it does not.  if the system did the forum here would be littered with complaints also all of the major review sites would have articles on this (they don't) and the cad/cam/video  forums would also have many postings on it (again they don't) so what do we have? from what it have seen it's non professionals who bought z800 (and now z820) systems as a gaming system and have tried to install dual high power cpu's and dual 250 watt cards on stock 850 watt supplies along with lots of "tweaked" drivers (read unstable)

and you are wrong, the upgraded supply DOES have the nessary connections for dual card support hp sells a dual card kit for the supply that simply has custom 6 to 8 pin gpu adapters and this is a offical supported/warrantied solution from HP

if you make note of the web links where the person is complaining of poor hp supplies you will see that the other sites with people also complaning of it are actually linking back to the first site as a quote "new" site also complaing of the same problem

last if the power supply is expensive on your local ebay site go to another countyy's ebay site i know for a fact that some of the us sellers of said power supply ship overseas

and if a z800 supply costs you that much it's time to look at a z820 system that comes with a upgraded supply/dul cpu's ram  video card on the us ebay for 300.00 more

but since it's your system/money the bottom line is it's your choice to make, i just hope  that said choice works out for you!! good luck with whichever way you proceed

[SDH]

The power capacity of the 6-pin PCIe supplemental power cables has been a topic in this forum related to the Z420/Z620/Z820 series of HP workstations.

The "ATX standard" for these supplemental PCIe power cables is 75W each, and also 75W for the PCIe x16 card slots.

HP builds to that same wattage for the two PCIe x16 slots , but their PCIe supplemental power cables are built to a significantly higher standard (12V 18A).  So..... 75W from the slot and (12 x 18) 216W from the cable is 291W.

I'm not saying the OP should run 582W worth of cards through those two PCIe x16 slots.... just that the OP appears to be underestimating what HP has engineered to.  If I were the OP I'd spend some time finding the HP adapters for 1 6-pin to 2 6-pin or 1 6-pin to 1 8-pin, as needed.  Remember that many of the adapters out there are not built to HP standards.  Some part numbers are here in the forum. 

Also, the OP should seek out and read HP's advice on these issues in the latest version of the technical/service manual (which can be found via a Google search for 504632-004).