How do I identify whether HP ZTurbo card will work with Z420 as a boot drive please?

[Rodger-Dodger]

Hi.  Newbie to this forum here.

I've been trawling through a few posts on here regarding HP ZTurbo drive and came across a detailed post which states, 

"ZTD:  HP should have called the first the ZTD G1 and they did call the second the ZTD G2.  The G1 is for the ZX20 generation and also can work on the ZX40 workstations.  The G2 is only for the ZX40 generation.  G1 uses specific HP AHCI controller M.2 sticks and G2 uses specific HP NVMe controller M.2 sticks."

I am aware from reading on here that I will need an AHCI SSD SM951 M.2.

However, I've been trawling Ebay for the card and it's a minefield.  

I clearly need a G1 card it would seem BUT some sellers are listing their cards as G.1/G.2.  Most do not seem to have the M.2 socket screw for holding the 2280 SSD into place.  I've even seen cards for sale without the screw but using the heatsink instead and a cable tie!!!

Also watched a video on YouTube of one of these cards booting and it is ridiculously fast, like 12 seconds to desktop, on a clean install.  Doesn't seem real to me.  The guy in that video didn't have a heatsink installed.  Is that risky?

Is there a definitive part number and/or revision number that I should be looking for?

Some sellers have MS-4365 Rev 1.1, listing title says 742006-002 and photo shows 742006-003.

This listing doesn't mention any workstations it is compatible with but looks to be a nice complete kit:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192918435096?

What's the worst case scenario if I bought any card? That it would just work as a document drive with NVMe installed?

Thanks

[SDH]

The kit you show is officially a ZTD G1 PCIe card, engineered for the AHCI-controller M.2 sticks used in the Z420/Z620/Z820 workstations and one of that family's SFF models... using the short backplane adapter shown. The two AHCI sticks are the original XP941 and the faster SM951 you reference. A PM981a NVMe-controller sticks run in a fast ZX40 next generation of workstation clock in about twice as fast as the SM951 from my testing (shown in another post). Those NVMe ones run significantly hotter too and benefit from the ZTD G2's heatsink.

That was me who wrote what you have in quotes at top of your post. I've learned some since then, and you are correct that the topic is a bit of a minefield. I'll try to be brief, and there is a good reference post with lots more info (and not brief) HERE . Kudos to DGroves for help figuring out this topic.

The part of the quote that needs improvement is "The G2 is only for the ZX40 generation".  More correct would be "The G2 card was designed by HP for the ZX40 generation but it also works just as well in a ZX20 generation workstation if it has one of the HP-supported AHCI-controller M.2 sticks inside."

If you look at my ZTD Secrets post (linked above) you'll see that HP released two different AHCI-controller M.2 sticks for the ZX20 workstations. The second one is roughly twice as fast as the first (but still a bit slower than most NVMe sticks), will run somewhat hotter than the first, and is relatively rare. Both of the AHCI sticks run cooler than the HP NVMe-controller sticks used in the ZX40 workstations so HP engineered on a very nice heatsink for the ZTD G2 card. Functionally it is the M.2 stick present that makes a ZTD card a G1 or a G2... you can boot from either of those PCIe cards with either a HP AHCI or a HP NVMe-controller stick in a ZX40, but for all practical purposes you can't run a HP NVMe-controller M.2 stick in a ZX20 regardless of whether you mount it in a G1 or G2 card.

The G2 with its heatsink attached needs both an upper and lower delicate thermal pad. Those are easy to tear but sometimes you can buy a used G2 card that comes with both thermal pads intact. You also can buy aftermarket thermal pads that fit, and even unused HP ones as a kit sometimes found on eBay (HP part MS4365PAD).

Regarding that special black plastic/finely milled brass HP M.2 stick hold-down screw: I've posted details on it, and a ghetto mod, and some have been available on eBay. A trick to know is that if you get a G2 card (with the heatsink and thermal pads present) those will hold the M.2 stick in place perfectly when you screw the heatsink down. In that case there is no absolute need for that special hold-down  (but it's handier to have one than not).

There also are some nice aftermarket M.2 stick coolers you can add to a ZTD G1 card so you can avoid thermal throttling of a NVMe M.2 stick in a ZX40. There's also an easy way to modify either of the G1 or G2 cards to use those in a non-HP computer. Finally, I've even used non-HP NVMe M.2 sticks in either the G1 or G2 cards in a ZX40. Lenovo has a nice NVMe stick firmware updater program that is pretty up to date and works well (but which only works on Lenovo sourced sticks). Booting from one of these ZTD cards with an added big SSD as a documents drive is a fast combination.

So much for being brief...

[Rodger-Dodger]

That’s a fantastic amount of info. Thanks for that and the prompt response. 

I’ve seen one of those cards again in China I think with the pads and both adapter plates so seems like a good option. 

so basically I don’t actually need to worry about which ZTurbo card whether it be G1 or G2 so long as I get a nice fast SM951 AHCI SSD for booting. 

I was hoping to try and find some information about the specific markings on the ZTurbo controller chip as a way of knowing for sure if the card was AHCI capable. 

I read a post on here which confused because the OP actually seemed to be getting confused with what they were being advised so that probably clouded my judgement a bit. 

[SDH]

Believe me, it took a long time to sort this all out.  Personally I've liked the ZTD G2 because it has that nice heatsink, and if you're running the AHCI-controller SM951 it will be generating more heat than the original common slower AHCI-controller M.2 stick. I recently bought a couple of spare black plastic/brass HP hold-down screws. There also is a blue plastic/brass version that looks the same but uses a larger diameter metric screw instead.

The controller chip on the card for G1 vs G2 acts as if it is identical... don't waste time with that. But, what HP workstation will you be putting that in (because that matters)? If the ZTD G1 or G2 card does not get a proper OK signal from the HP computer's/workstation's BIOS the card will turn itself off automatically. That is where the hack to mod the card so it won't turn itself off comes in if you want to use it in a non-HP computer. HP did expand the range of HP computers that can send the OK signal but there is not one unified list of those. That is part of the whole mismash that exists around these, and the ones that are approved also must have an upgraded BIOS to handle that issue. I'm sure it was a big headache for HP back then... it has been for us too.

[DGroves]

in a nutshell the HP ZTurbo card and the HP ZTurbo card G2 both use EXACTLY the same card,

only the installed ssd on the pci-e card differs 

pre HP Zx40 systems (Zx00/Zx20 based models) along with the z230 must use the HP ssd card with a "AHCI" based SSD

as a boot device, this is because the bios's on these systems lack the necessary nvme boot code

the Zx40 line of workstations  (and the z240) can boot from both AHCI and NVME based ssd's

to modify the HP card for use in other systems transistor "Q1" needs to be removed and as it's a surface mount device i recommend having a local shop do the mod or buy a pre modded card off ebay

as "SDH" posted the G2 cards heatsink is a nice bonus and is almost a required item for the 941AHCI/951 NVME  based ssd's the xm941 actually runs hotter than the sm951 ssd!!

last the AHCI based SM951 is actually only 3-7% slower than the sm951 nvme drive i've tested the 941 and AHCI/NVME 951 ssd's in the same z820 using the same test app on the same day a few years ago and was suppressed just how fast the AHCI based ssd was overall

[Rodger-Dodger]

Understood. 

So I’ll just grab a drive with the screw and the heat sink and sticky pads also and a nice SM951 AHCI and it sounds like Bob’s your Uncle. 

I have the later mobo and latest BIOS. Read somewhere on here, SDH post I think, that I should start by doing factory defaults and go from there. 

Should be able to work it out with a bit of reading up on here. Great forum. 

[DGroves]

the first HP ssd card should be placed in slot# 4

Slot 4 is a PCI Express Gen3 x8 with open-ended connector** Full-height, Full-length (with extender)

Installing multiple HP Z Turbo Drives 

Configuring the drive addresses

If more than one of any of the following drives are to be installed in a system, a unique address for each drive

must be configured before installation:

●

HP Z Turbo Drive

●

HP Z Turbo Drive G2

HP Z Turbo Quad Pro

●

NOTE:

A second HP Z Turbo Quad Pro can be installed on an HP Z840 with a second CPU only.

The HP Z Turbo Drive and HP Z Turbo Drive G2 both support a single M.2 module and have jumpers that can be

set to eight unique addresses. Each HP Z Turbo Drive and HP Z Turbo Drive G2 must have a unique address.

For possible jumper configurations and corresponding labels, see the following diagram

[Rodger-Dodger]

I will be using it in a Z420.

I have the opportunity to buy some what I assume are G1 cards and some G2 cards (with heatsink) so may have the odd question when they land - generated from your "secrets" thread.  This is mightily useful and well written.

Ah yes! There's that question just popped back into my head.

It says do a factory reset on the BIOS settings to save headaches when installing the drive.  I'll follow it to the letter. However I have some bespoke setting in my BIOS which I would like to restore.

I'll probably know the answer to this when I go back into the BIOS as I've not been there for a while.  Is there a way to save the existing settings and more importantly is it OK to restore those settings once the system is up and running or am I likely to encounter any pitfalls do you know?

I think it will be fine but there is always those pesky pitfalls.

Do you consider a heatsink is required for a documents drive as I will probably also be fitting one at some point?  I get that fitting one on the boot drive is probably a good idea especially if it is getting caned from the app perspective. I will be running a CAD package for 2D drafting and Photoshop and even Solidworks.

[Rodger-Dodger]

I may very well be installing more than one.

A nice boot drive and a nice documents drive for current stuff and a normal SSD for archiving maybe.

At least that's how I see it playing out.

You say that the heatsink is almost a requirement.  I suppose something is better than nothing and I picked up on SDH Gelid Ultimate pad recommendation.  A bit pricey though.

[Rodger-Dodger]

I read somewhere that you, I think it was you, asked about pad thicknesses.

I have measured a 2.5mm pad to the underside the SM951 would fill the gap.  A 3mm. pad would need to compress slightly.

Not sure if a pad on the underside would actually do much about thermal conductivity because where is it conducting to?

And if you are recycling SSD's with only 300 power on hours. That is amazing.  The one that I've just bought is 13770 hours which I thought was high until I saw my own.