Maxing out a xw4600 - Advice sought please!

[Rhothgar]

Again.  I've learned something new.

I always thought bigger would be better ie dual processors.

Originally, this workstation was bought with general office use with an emphasis on 2D CAD but I've not practised in over 12 years now so the chances of me returning to doing any kind of architectural work is probably zero even though money is tight.  You'll maybe understand that feeling with the pressure of deadlines, etceteras.

I now have an online retail business which keeps our head above water so generally the need is to stifle the impatience of programmes opening and running a browser typically with 100 tabs open at a time (for business and personal research purposes).

I use Adobe Photoshop to  edit mask backgrounds and edit photos generally where required for the website so it would be nice to not have to wait any length of time the system to start up and programmes to open.

For instance, backups in Sage Accounts take an absolute age so if I have need to save a backup and restore another backup then 5 minutes per action can seem like an age when you are just twiddling your thumbs.

Photoshop takes around 35 seconds to open (that seems an inordinate amount of time to me - I loaded it onto a relative's new 9i7 NUC and take only took 10 seconds which although much better still doesn't seem fantastic) and then selections in Photoshop can be slow.

I recently did a feasibility in Google Sketchup for a friend and also designed a mechanical part for manufacture for myself but that is not my daily bread.  It would be nice to have a system that is able to act as a strong all-rounder.

So it leads me to ponder what type of system photo editing requires and how the information is threaded?  Is that the right term?

You really surprised me by declaring a single processor is used for ray trace rendering but then again most architectural practices run them overnight but the operators also know what the best settings are until the Architect comes alone and asks if they can change something.  Presumably a dual processor would be faster overall but I do know a decent rendering can take many, many hours.  I did a few for the mechanical part I designed and they took an age with certain settings and that was with only one texture!

One of the systems can take up to 192Gb ( 12 x 16GB I believe).  I can't ever see me using that capacity but it would be good to have it available for a few years down the line when the memory is cheaper perhaps.  It just seems otherworldly to me.

I am a bit old fashioned I have to say.  I remember how fast Windows 95 would open with only 8Gb RAM (from my fading memory archives!)  25 years ago.  System boot up time was incredibly impressive.

Biggest change I made to the HP xw4600 was putting an SSD in it.  It transformed it.  I'd be guessing but perhaps these NVM-e drives are even quicker.

[BambiBoomZ]

Rhothgar,

We are perhaps in somewhat parallel tracks as I've discontinued commissioned architectural design a couple of years ago and am working on various industrial designs and written projects since.  The industrial design projects are being done in Sketchup - a holdover from architecture.  I'd like to learn Rhino, but it's a "bit" dear. The 2D drawings were AutoCad, the 3D models were Sketchup,  translated and refined by others into Revit.  This range of workloads has always necessitated a strong all-rounder PC; good at everything.

The problem with an all-rounder system that can run all the capabilities of Photoshop, AtoCad. Sketchup,  rendering, as well as databases, and large volume disk transfers and backup  is that it needs first of all, a quite high single-thread performance, a pile of RAM memory, fast drives, and of course,  a lot of cores, but that have to be fast.  More so when one does everything oneself, everything has to be high performance. It's a truism to say that higher performance is going to better performing, but if the work is paid, it's a also a conventional wisdom to say that time is money.

Because of cost considerations, there has to be found a practical - read affordable-middle ground. In my view that may be established by categories of priorities.  In the tasks that are common in my office, the priority is that the real-time tasks have to be fast- 3D modeling, photo editing, while the tasks that can be done while away from the system- rendering, large data transfers, backing up, and etc, may set their own pace.  The main system in the office z620_2 until recently was running an 8-core Xeon E5-1680 v2 that was overclocked to 4.3GHz on all cores.  When CPU rendering, the all-core clock speed was 3.4GHz, but  those could be done at night in a queue. 

The real-time priority was establish in the matter of the the processor single-thread performance.  Accordingly, a few weeks, the  E5-1680 v2  was changed to a Xeon E5-1650 v2- at a cost of $50 and thanks to the z420 AIO liquid cooling the z620- not an HP- sanctioned use, it was possible to run the E5-1650 v2 at 4.6GHz on all cores.  The all core clock speed is also 4.6GHz and mathematically the 12-threads @ 4.6GHz have a slightly higher IPC than the 16 threads @ 3.4 GHz.  Using the  E5-1680 v2, the Passmark Single Thread Mark = 2302, with the  E5-1650 v2 at 4.6GHz the Passmark Single Thread Mark = 2550, which i would say is very satisfying in working on the large Sketchup models with a lot of textures, and would represent a fairly good FPS in games- (which I have never tried).  The M.2 OS/programs drive and the current m.2 NVMe drive are very fast: I'm working on a 226-page document with fifty embedded renderings- the file 1.2GB sand at 4.6GHz is is very fast.  My only concern - or disappointment in the new configuration resides in the 6TB HD- large backups (500GB+) take too long. 

Something that should be more helpful than my long ramble is to have a look at the Puget systems articles about the hardware performance factors relative to the applications, i.e., what is the best hardware for Premier, Photoshop, Solidworks, rendering, and etc,:  https://www.pugetsystems.com

Specifying a strong workstation in my view is a far more complex equation than getting high frame rates in gaming. And, having a system that may be extended in capabilities and kept useful at a reasonable cost requires a fairly deep knowledge of the software /hardware relationship. It is always wise to have the system quite a bit better than it needs to be now; otherwise and two or three years on the whole thing may need be done again.

BambiBoomZ

[Rhothgar]

Thanks for the even greater insight into what areas I need to carefully consider in improving both the PC's.  

I think I am definitely going to have fun modding a chip for sure in one of the xw4600's and replace the other with a system that can be upgraded as and when funds / return on investment begin to stack up.

I've always realised there is more to it than the marketing blurb one reads.  That's there for profit reports of the big companies so it is really enlightening to be able to discuss value-for-money options which relate to my actual requirements.

Have a great weekend.  I've got a lot of digging and questions to ask myself and of sellers of ex-lease units for sale online.

[Rhothgar]

Hi @BambiBoomz

In your first reply to me, you spoke of a Z420_3 in your office which started life with an E5-1607 processor.

I have been waiting for a cheap unit to manifest and I have found a unit for £150 with this processor but only PC3 14900 RAM and 4 DIMM slots?

Do I need to ask the seller for a screenshot of the BIOS screen showing the BootBlock?  How is it possible to identify a Z420_1, Z420_2 or Z420_3? 

It's on a generic listing and they have sold 55 units so far and have 5 left.  I am guessing they won't be interested in giving me a serial number of any of the units nor linking it up and turning it on to take a photo of the BIOS screen.

The unit has 2 USB 3.0 at the front and 2 on the rear.

Thanks in advance.

[DGroves]

just a quick tip that many photoshop users overlook

run photoshop "LAST", due to how this app is coded it will look for and use/reserve all available ram

so if you run photoshop and then open say outlook, outlook will then have to continually swap ram/data chunks out to the disk slowing it down (and also photoshop)

also, there are some software packages that can take a render application and split it's rendering of a image across several systems just google rendering farm software if interested (not all apps will benefit from this however)

[Rhothgar]

That's fascinating.  I would never think of that if left to my own devices.

It would probably run really well if it was the only app I have open.  Currently I have about 100 tabs open in Google Chrome. That takes stacks of memory currently 2.5Gb!! Currently got a SQL Server app running too that is using a fair bit of processor.  Not entirely sure what that is doing!

[DGroves]

just start chrome and all necessary tabbs any other apps and photoshop last

https://www.crowd-render.com/

https://all3dp.com/2/best-render-farm/

[BambiBoomZ]

Rhothgar,

If the system is an HP z420, it has 8X RAM slots; four are hidden on the left side behind a shroud / memory fan.

Z420_3 as purchased had this configuration:

HP z420_3: (Original) Xeon E5-1607 v2 (4-core / 4 Thread @ 2.8GHz) / 4GB (1X 4GB DDR3-1866 ECC unbuffered / NVIDIA GeForce 7100 GS / WD Blue 500GB / 400W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (HP OEM ) > HP 2711x 27" 1980 X 1080
[Passmark System Rating: = 569 / CPU = 5492 / 2D = 538 / 3D = 60 / Mem = 1117 . Disk = 864 ] [Single Thread Mark = 1509] 9.27.17

That system was purchased fully functional and in the original box with keyboard/mouse, all the disks, books and etc.

Consider the ongoing advantages of an E5- v2 processor- higher clock speed, more potential core count, and DDR3-1866 RAM instead of DDR3-1600. 

In my view, the best method to ensure a system can use a Xeon E5-X6XX v2 is to purchase it working- on some level however minimally, and including the Xeon E5-X6XX v2 processor that is the intended one for ongoing use. that will require a preliminary decision as to single-thread performance or core-count priority.  If #D CAD is the primary real-time application, it would better to favor single thread performance, if it all long-slog CPU renderings- the cores/threads are the winners. 

When considering processors, this site is very useful to evaluate relative performance:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/CPU_mega_page.html

The equivalent  for graphics cards is:

https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php

Even if it has only 8GB of RAM, an ancient GPU, and minimal mechanical HD- all plug in's that will be changed anyway, if the processor is correct, the system is functional right away, and the cosmetic condition is acceptable, it is miles ahead in terms of economy of effort, time, and costs of a "bare bones" system. When z420_3 was purchased in that very minimal configuration that was because it was immediately useful- to a degree, the immaculate condition, completeness, and very low price. 

Buying complete and running will cost a bit more, but if the system is working on some level as in the example of the original z420_3, it may be benchmarked and upgraded gradually, while still getting the work done on some level.  The level of refinement will be better and it avoids a techno-panic to get back to work.  Z420_3 has been in continual use as of three hours after opening the box in 2017, and is today:

HP z420_3: (2015) (R12) Xeon E5-1650 v2 (6C@ 4.6GHz) / z420 Liquid cooling / 64GB (HP/Samsung 8X 8GB DDR3-1866 ECC registered) / NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/ Samsung SM951 M.2 256GB AHCI + Samsung 860 EVO 500GB + HGST 7K6000 4TB / ASUS Essence STX + Logitech z2300 2.1 / 600W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (HP OEM ) > Samsung 40" 4K
[Passmark System Rating: = 6186 CPU = 15844 / 2D = 819 / 3D = 11216 / Mem = 3047 Disk = 13905 / Single Thread Mark = 2525 [7.3.21]

Buying the cheapest is usually more expensive in the long term.

Also,  the cosmetics of a system are not a terrific concern, but, in my terms, it is a  more comfortable purchase - satisfying over a longer period, if if it's reasonably tidy inside and out, or can be made so.

BambiBoomZ

[Rhothgar]

So can any  unit badged Z420 be upgraded as per your Z420_3 and clocked if wished?

Another concern with the unit I've seen is whether it can run the DDR-1866 as it only has PC3-14900 installed.

[SDH]

May I help a bit...

The key concept is that there are two versions of the Z420... a version 1 and a version 2.  There are several ways to tell if a workstation's motherboard is a version 1 (which you don't want) versus a version 2 (which is what you want).  I have posted in the forum on how to look at the assembly number on the right hand side of the barcode label (centered on motherboards for sale on eBay), and how to use that method to make sure you're buying a version 2.  You want it to be AS#618263-003.  Bambi, our friend, explained to you the benefit of buying a slow poke version 2 Z420 that is running and has a slow v2 processor (such as the E5-1620 v2 or E5-1607 v2).  Then you simply buy that and throw out the slow v2 processor, and soup it up with one he has found to be able to run much faster.  When that is paired with equally fast ECC registered proper memory the result is excellent.

Another method is that sometimes an eBay seller will show a picture of the Z420 workstation's boot block date from the "System Information" page in BIOS, and if it is from 2013 that is what you want (3/6/13).  My bar code way works best for converting a v1 workstation to a v2 via a motherboard transplant because virtually never will an eBay seller be able to show you the boot block date from a bare used motherboard.

Speaking of these different methods... you need to accept your skill level.  If you have never replaced a processor and don't know how to apply thermal paste correctly, or never have replaced a motherboard, and don't know details on how to buy a compatible used v2 fast processor which can be overclocked then you will need to do a lot of homework first, or hire this out.

My guess is that you are less experienced, but have skills.  For example, your question regarding speed of DDR3-1866 vs PC3-14900 (the speeds are the same).  There are important processor and memory details to get right, and Bambi helped me years ago with that.  I then did an upgrade of about 25 Z420 v2 workstations with the best certified fastest processors and also matching used server memory to load the workstations with 4 x 8GB sticks, or 8.x 8GB, of the 1866/14900 ECC registered RAM that HP/IBM/Lenovo/Dell used in their prior generation servers.  That exact memory also runs great in the Z420 v2 workstations. 

You want to know the exact codes of memory to buy.... I chose a particular Samsung 8GB stick but I've subsequently also filled some of the workstations with a particular matching Micron 8GB stick.  Not a single failure for over 2 years now, and we hammer these workstations.  It is best if all 8 sockets are filled with identical memory.  HP also has an order of filling the sockets initially with 4 sticks, and then later adding another 4, to go from 32 to 64 GB total. 

I aimed for $11.00 USD/8GB stick, so with tax and shipping I was happy to pay a bit under 100.00 USD for 64GB of this excellent fast RAM.  Of interest, it also works fine in the Z600 v2 workstations with the fastest processors those ran.

Also, you may wish to take a look at the Z440... they came with a TPM 1.2 chip that can become a TPM 2.0 chip via a firmware flash.  However, the memory is different, DDR4.  Processors are different, E5-1650 v3 or E5-1650 v4, for example.  But that is a whole other project...