SSD drive upgrade - HP spectre x360 - 13-4001ns

[MrTech3]

Many people in other posts have been asking if the Spectre's M.2 slot can also work with NVMe, and I know the answer is YES, definitely for my 4101dx.   I expect it is the same with all 4000 and 4100 labeled models. The reason is I expect a similar motherboard setup since the processors are 5000 series Intel i5 or i7, so I expect all the motherboards will be compatible with M.2 PCIe NVMe if my 5th gen i7 5500U is; that means a PCIe SSD, either AHCI or NVMe will work, noting this current problem with NVMe, that today normal USB bootable backup media won't recognize it without proper added NVMe drivers, which most USB bootable media today doesn't have without installing special drivers.  

So NVMe works, but it requires NVMe drivers to be recognized as installed when you boot with a USB bootable media.  The other option might be to find a USB adapter to connect the PCIe drive externally, but those are not readily available (see below).  I did not have the expertise to find or add NVMe drivers to add to a WinPE boot option, but as others have said elsewhere who succeded in installing a NVMe drive, I was able to easily install the SSD into the Spectre, by booting from USB Windows 10 installation media and creating a fresh install, since Windows already comes with NVMe drivers.  Others have reported that if they then install Samsung's own NVMe drivers that the Samsung 950 Pro performs better.  It was easy for me to find the drivers on Samsung's Download pages and easy to install, once the new SSD was up and running Windows 10.

The real question I didn't find a full definitive answer anywhere yet is: What are the specs of the motherboard for my HP Spectre?  and so: Can the HP  Spectre models (prior to Skylake) run the Samsung 950 Pro NVMe SSD at full speed?    My answer The motherboard in the HP Spectre 4101dx is M.2 PCIe 2.0, 5 GB/s x4, so yes it can run the Samsung 950 Pro , but not at full speed.  That being said, I have never experienced a faster boot and general running of Windows than with the Spectre X360 with the Samsung 950 Pro installed.  It is significantly faster than M.2 Sata (Sata III 6GB/sec). But it is more expensive and nothing larger than 512GB is available yet.

The 4101dx is an i7 5500U model and came out the year before the newest Skylake processors and motherboards came out.  Reading about Skylake, one expects that all Skylake motherboards should all come ready with PCIe 3.0, which is 8 GB/s with 4 lanes, but I would like to hear that confirmed with owners of the newest Spectre models with Skylake.  After installing the Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 512GB SSD in the Spectre X360, and once it was installed I was able to use Samsung's Magician Software to see that the specifications of my model is running PCIe 2.0, because it showed my connection as 5 GB/s with 4 lanes. I can confirm, as others have posted, a Samsung 950 Pro runs on a Spectre X360 at very nearly 1600 mb/s for both read and write at its top speeds, being somewhat bottlenecked by running on PCIe 2.0.  This means that for such Spectre models the NVMe works, but not at its full potential, but it is vastly faster than the stock SSD and vastly faster than M.2 Sata drives like the Samsung Evo (running max at SATA III 6GB/sec)).  

I am personally very happy with the price/specs/value of the HP Spectre X360 from 2015, especially because of the battery life, and its ability to take one of these new NVMe Samsung 950 Pro SSDs.  I am not sure how much faster it would run if it were on a PCIe 3.O slot, but I am sure I would not want to pay $300 more to find out, which is what it would cost me, since I found my personal Spectre used for about $800.

The next question people have is: Should I get a SSD with AHCI vs NVMe?  AHCI is definitely easier to install in the Spectre. My reading on this suggests that NVMe is more efficient at data handling, and thus somewhat faster in real use than AHCI M.2 PCIe drives can be, but how much, I don't know.  When I look at benchmarks from those using Samsung SM951 ACHI M.2 PCIe drives, the benchmarks are pretty close to what people are getting from the Samsung 950 Pro.  

If your HP Spectre X360 is PCIe 2.0... (Skylake models might be PCIe 3.0, in which case what I say below would be somewhat different, since the Samsung 950 Pro is the fastest drive if you can install it in PCIe 3.0, it can't perform at top speed when installed in a PCIe 2.0 machine)

A big reason to chose a Samsung 950 Pro vs Samsung SM951 or Samsung XP941 is that the Samsung 950 Pro is readily available and intended for consumer use, and has a 5 year warranty, and works with Samsung Magician and Data Migration softwares.  That beings said, if money is an issue and you have a Spectre with M.2  PCIe 2.0 available, the Samsung XP941 will install easily with USB backup media because it is ACHI and is also PCIe 2.0.  The Samsung SM951 has 2 different versions, either ACHI or NVMe, and it is PCIe 3.0 ready, so it would be bottlenecked similarly as the Samsung 950 Pro, so though it would be a bit slower installed in PCIe 3.0, it will be pretty similar to the 950 Pro if installed in PCIe 2.0. Again, for people trying to understand this, it is easier to install an ACHI M.2 SSD because it is more recognizable to regular USB Bootable backup media, but the Spectre can run NVMe drives if you have the right USB Bootable media with drivers for it.  

One thing that would make NVMe SSDs easy to install using a normal cloning software like Samsung Data Migration would be if USB adapters were readily available for M.2 PCIe NVMe drives.  They are still not really here, though some seem available on Ebay or Amazon from China, so far as I can find, which, if you get one that will work, would make it easy to use software like Samsung Data Migration, since both the original drive and the destination drive would need to be available at the same time.  If you are careful to find on that works with NVMe and if you are patient to wait the 2 - 4 weeks to receive it from China, you might find the upgrade to an NVMe SSD easy.

A question I had going in:  Do you need your Windows Product Key ready if you make a fresh install of Windows 10 from a standard install of Windows that did not come with its own Product Key?   So, I found a free Product Key finder before I made the new installation and wrote down the Windows Product Key that is connected to my HP Spectre, but I found that my product key somehow remained connected to my computer even after a fresh install of Windows on the new drive without asking me for the Product Key in the installation process.  I am guessing that the key is somehow stored in the Bios, or something, but I have never read about it, but somehow the correct key was present after the install.  I was worried that I would need to have my Product Key on hand in order to make the fresh install on the new drive, but I was not asked for it and found it already there when I finished.  I felt good about that.

I just did a search for Windows install iso (image file needed, that you then 'burn' on a USB stick.) The first links are websites that announces and directs you to the Microsoft downloads, with some instructions.  I noted in my last post, that when I did the actual install, somehow my Product Key was automatically connected to my Spectre, so I didn't need to input it in order to install onto the new drive.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/windows-10-iso-available-download-1513087

and another similar, with instructions...

http://www.groovypost.com/howto/windows-10-iso-download/

This link is directly to Microsoft.  I didn't check recently, but I am assuming we have Windows 64 bit version on our Spectres, but you can check your current machine before you download 64 or 32 bit. 

Microsoft's pages, with instructions...

for Download

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO

For instructions

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/windows-usb-dvd-download-tool

After the fresh install of Windows, I then went to HP support and HP's assistent for updating drivers, and I was very grateful this was easy to do.  When I ran it, it only suggested that I needed 2 drivers, and certainly not every driver that was available for my model on HP's website. I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps Windows was able to set up most necessary drivers in the normal install process.  I did manually add the Symantics Trackpad driver and that seemed to add some trackpad functionality I was familiar with from before the new install.  I am not sure if I will find the need to update other drivers in the future, but for now, the Spectre is running great.

To give you a few other details about the process, to boot from USB I used F10 to access the Bios and arrow to the right to get to System Configuration and then you arrow down to USB Boot options and hit return. Then 2 changes: 1: change Secure Boot to Disabled. (I suggest changing it back after the process is finished.) and 2nd: arrow down to USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk and then hit F6 to move it up to the top of the list as a 1st boot option.  Then F10 and save.  When you are finished with the upgrade you can go back and also push it down with F5.  After F10 and save the machine  will reboot. I found the Windows is not so easy to manage regarding booting off USB.  I did test using USB Boot Backup media that I created with EaseUS Backup Home, but without the NVMe drivers it wouldn't recognize my drive.  And then I booted from the Windows install USB and it didn't boot right up, for some reason it took a few tries.  This is where Mac has the Windows environment beat. It is so much easier to boot off of external drives and clone drives with Macs, but Macs make you pay through the nose for their new machines and you can't upgrade the SSDs yourself. A mistake by Apple in my book, and it will hurt many customers, but such is their current system.

For those contemplating this, I'll mention that it took a lot of searching to locate and download an image of Windows 10 installation, but once I had it, I installed it on a simple 4GB USB and it worked great.  If it were not for this step of needing a Windows install USB I would recommend this upgrade to anyone.

One last word: Be careful when you remove the back plate to your Spectre.  I used a Torx 6 to get the 8 screws off, some have said it is Torx 5, but I used Torx 6 without issue, and that is easy enough, but then the back cover has plastic clips. I found that the front of the machine was where to start at removing it, using a plastic pry tool (maybe a sturdy guitar pick could work too) and slide from a corner along the width of the cover and pop release the plastic tabs. It was much more difficult than I like, and I worried about bending the case, so be careful.  To put it back on, start by inserting the other side first, the side along the hinge, and then click in the front section.  I suspect you could break tabs along the hinge side if you don't place them first when closing it again.  And you will need a small Philips head screwdriver to get the drive out and in. I think I used size PH 00, but PH 0 might work too.  It will help to have a magnetic screw driver for this screw. It may want to fall into the machine if you don't have a magnetic screwdriver.  Also, be very careful not to touch the motherboard with your fingers when a battery is connected to the motherboard. You can do serious damage if you create a short.  I am more familiar with upgrading Macs, and I always unplug the battery. I didn't know the Spectre as well, so I didn't unplug the battery, but was extremely careful not to touch the motherboard.  It is a quick swap for the SSD, so it wasn't open for long.

I hope this helps people like myself who could not find this information in one place.

[afinpdx]

Hello. Thanks for the thorough explanation. I have a 4103dx with win10 and am trying to upgrade to the Samsung SM951 512GB drive. I read your explanation and created two recovery USB drives. One that used HP's Recovery Manager tool to create the bootable USB. And a second that used the native Windows tool to create a bootable USB.  I read where you said "I was able to easily install the SSD into the Spectre, by booting from USB Windows 10 installation media and creating a fresh install, since Windows already comes with NVMe drivers." I guess I assumed this meant a Win 10 recovery USB Drive. But now I suspect you mean a completely new installation of Win 10...because neither of my recovery drives worked for doing a fresh install. Any suggestions you might have for what I could do to get a "USB Windows 10 installation media" that would work? All assistance very much appreciated. 

[MrTech3]

Hi. I'll try to give you some guidance that should get your through.  Your situation is a bit different than I focused on in my last post.  My last post focused on the problem of installing an NVMe version of a  M.2 PCIe SSD.  There are 2 of those from Samsung that are available, the Samsung 950 Pro, which is readily available as a consumer SSD, and the specific NVMe version of the SM951, which was made for companies who make hardware, and not consumers, so they are available on Amazon, but not everywhere, and I heard that they don't necessarily work with Samsung's Migration Assistant, or Magician Software.  These 2 are NVMe drives, and they need a Windows 10 install USB to get setup easily.

I am GUESSING that you bought the AHCI version of the SM951.  This does not require special NVMe drivers, so you should be able to install it using USB backup software.  You say you created a USB recovery stick... well, that should work if you have the AHCI version of the SM951, BUT YOU NEED TO ACTUALLY HAVE A BACKUP OF YOUR WHOLE DRIVE CONNECTED TO THE COMPUTER WHEN YOU RUN THE USB RECOVERY.  My understanding of the process, if it is not working for you, is that hopefully you can boot from the USB recovery stick, but then you need to have a backup to draw from that you can recover onto your new drive.  I used a normal external USB drive when I needed to make a full Backup of my drive - BUT BEWARE WHEN YOU MAKE A RECOVERY BACKUP, BECAUSE I EXPECT IT WILL ERASE YOUR EXTERNAL DRIVE COMPLETELY AND ALL YOU WILL HAVE ON IT IS THE RECOVERY DATA.  Once you have the backup on an external drive, you can install the new SSD, boot from the USB recovery, and attach your USB external hard drive that has the Backup on it, and the Recovery software should find it and then you should be able to restore onto your new drive.

Most people recommend using free/paid Backup software to do this, and not Recovery.  I think that the reason is perhaps that with these, you can make a backup on an external disk that does not wipe the whole disk, but just puts the image on the external drive.  If you read back in the prior posts, people have used Macrium Reflect, or EaseUS Backup.  The steps are install the software, make a full backup on an external drive, create a USB boot stick, install the new drive, boot to the USB boot stick with the Macrium or EaseUS software on it, attach the external drive with the backup, and restore to the new drive.

If you have the AHCI version of the Samsung SM951, I recommend you try my suggestions above, using a Backup or Recovery to upgrade your SSD. The reason is, it creates a clone of your current system, and you won't need to reinstall all your programs and data, which can take a long time.

I found this page that explains the way Macrium Reflect would do it...

http://www.howtogeek.com/223139/how-to-create-an-image-of-your-pc-before-upgrading-to-windows-10/

If you happen to have bought the NVMe version of the Samsung SM951, then you will need USB Windows 10 install image.

I just did a search for Windows install iso (image file needed, that you then 'burn' on a USB stick.) The first link is a website that announces and directs you to the Microsoft downloads, with some instructions.  I noted in my last post, that when I did the actual install, somehow my Product Key was automatically connected to my Spectre, so I didn't need to input it in order to install onto the new drive.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/windows-10-iso-available-download-1513087

and another similar, with instructions...

http://www.groovypost.com/howto/windows-10-iso-download/

This link is directly to Microsoft.  I didn't check recently, but I am assuming we have Windows 64 bit version on our Spectres, but you can check your current machine before you download 64 or 32 bit. 

Microsoft's pages, with instructions...

for Download

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO

For instructions

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/windows-usb-dvd-download-tool

For others reading this, the Samsung  XP941 is ACHI, and the Samsung SM951 has an ACHI version. If you are looking to buy a Samsung SM951 and it doesn't specifically say that it is NVMe, then it is likely ACHI, because that has been the standard for a while and likely doesn't even need to be mentioned until the newer NVMe started coming out.  ACHI, if I understand it correclty, is the way a hard drive talks and exchanges with a computer, and it has been around for a while, and I believe that all Sata I, Sata II, Sata III, mSata (SATA or PCIe) drives have all been using ACHI. So it has been around and is very friendly to being upgraded in normal ways.  NVMe is new, and supposedly adds some new efficiencies, but it does not have full driver support for older boot media.  I am guessing that this should change soon, now that many of us are finding ourselves unable to use Macrium, EaseUS or other venerable ways to backup and restore onto a new SSD. Lots of people are using these 2 PCI3 ACHI drives and they are much faster than Sata drives, which max out just over 500 MB a second.

[afinpdx]

Wow...again, can't begin to say thanks enough.

It looks like I did get the AHCI version though that wasn't my intention. Here's what I bought from amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SM951-512GB-Internal-MZHPV512HDGL-00000/dp/B00VELDBJ6?ie=UTF8&keywords...

This 951 is what comes up first on amazon when you search  'samsung 951 nvme'...but now I see the last bullet says "Supports Standard AHCI drive".

So, I could always return it and get the 950 Pro. Then reinstall the old 256 drive and follow the microsoft links to create a Windows install iso. If that would work.

Is the performance gain of NVME over AHCI worth it? (I know...that's a judgement call) 

[emmerx]

In a laptop like the Spectre NVME will not improvie performance compared to AHCI.

For servers it will.

Another possibility to restore the system backup from a current SATA AHCI to a new NVME could be:

• install the Windows/Samsung NVME driver on your system
• make a system backup with EaseUS or Macrium to an external USB disk
• replace the SATA with the NVME SSD and install Window with the MEdia Creation Tool USB stick
• install back up software
• Restore the system image (with the NVME driver...) to the new SSD.

Hope this will work.

Otherwise I will stick to the AHCI version of the SM951, as read speed in the Spectre X360 seems limited to 1600MBps with the PCIE 2.0 bus.

[MrTech3]

Hi,

I tend to agree with the last poster, that NVMe won't make a huge difference in our Spectres.  I also would not change just for that.

But, this is where the question lies... Are you the kind of person who will buy another computer in 2 or 4 years, and will you migrate your PCIe SSD to it, or not.  If you plan to migrate the drive, likely your next machine will be able to run PCIe 3.0 at full speed, and then the Samsung 950 Pro might outperform the SM951.  Also, the 950 Pro has a 5 year warranty, the SM951is likely 3 years, but also questionable since these drives were meant for OEM, not upgrade consumers; the 950 is meant for upgrade consumers, so it might be tricky getting the warranty honored, but I am not sure how it actually would be.   

One note I found on the Amazon website, in the reviews, it looks like the SM951 may be able to run faster than 1600 mb read.

=================

ATTO Disk Benchmark

2.24 GB/s Read

1.6 GB/s Write

in order to get the max out of this SSD in desktop environment have those tips for anyone who want to buy this SSD

1- you must make sure you have PCI 8x M2 socket on your motherboard or purchase a pci 3.0 to M.2 SSD adapter

2- turn off c-state in your bios it will give you extra performance

3- running this SSD with windows 10 have issues because no mature AHCI drivers yet for windows 10 so the max speed for read and write under windows 10 would be 1.7 GB/s and 1.5GB/s for read and write

4- under windows 8.1 with the latest intel AHCI/RAID driver for motherboard Asus Rampage V Extreme i was able to attain full speed for this SSD

5- you must install windows on this SSD using UEFI motherboard and in UEFI Mode it will not boot in legacy mode

6- you must understand how much lanes your motherboard have with you processor because to have full speed of this SSD it must be running on 4x PCI-e so for those who will run on X99 motherboard they will have plenty of lanes (40 lane ) on the other side z97 have only 16 lanes

=================

If this reviewer is right, it seems that there are better drivers at the moment for Windows 8.1. That could mean that with better Win10 drivers things could improve for the SM951, but I expect it would only show if it were on a full PCIe 3.0 machine, not the older version of the Spectre.  For the 950 Pro Samsung created their own drivers, and perhaps this is why people say that it runs better with Samsung's drivers.

I am personally considering buying one of the chinese USB 3 adapters for PCIe 3.0.   It will just take a long time shipping, but with one, I will both be able to use the SSD I took out of my Spectre, and in the future I can clone my current drive if I need to.

I will mention that I signed up for email specials from Newegg.com, and when I bought my 950 Pro it was on sale for just under $300. That is the lowest I have ever seen it.  $320-325 is more the common low these days.

Good luck, whatever you chose to do.

[MrTech3]

I did some research into the M.2 socket on the Spectre models with 5th Gen 5000 series 5 and i7.

The socket can take either M.2 Sata or M.2 PCIe SSDs (either ACHI or NVMe) at PCIe 2.0 x4 at 5GB/sec, sizes are 80mm.

Any Sata drive will max at SATA III (500 odd MB/sec benchmark, and the best of these I think are the Samsung Evos, though others may like something else.

For M.2 PCIe is revision 2.0 x4/ 5 GB/sec, you can still run PCIe 3.0 x4  SSDs, but they won't run at full speed. For example, the NVMe Samsung 950 Pro 512 GB could run at 2,500 MB/s read and 1,500 MB/s write.

I found that the 950 Pro runs on 5th gen Intel i7 Spectre X360 M.2 PCIe 2.0 x4 with actual benchmarks at 1,600 MB/s and 1,500+ MB/s read, so it is mostly the top end of the read that is lost.  This drive really speeds up the Spectre.

See my later post about how to upgrade to the new spec NVMe spec SSDs, or the older spec ACHI SSDs.

For people wondering a bit more about the form factor, the PCIe versions use the M form (one notch), and the M.2 SATA SSDs use the B+M form (2 slots).

When I removed the ADATA AXNS381E-256MB-B from my Spectre, it was a B+M form (2 slots).

I mention this for people who might be looking online for M.2 adapters to USB 3.  I have been looking at them. Some only will run B form (SATA), others will run M form or B+M (could be written B-M).  I found one sold from inside the US that seemed to accept 80mm long SSDs (so many are smaller, or don't have a case) and I hope it accepts both M and B+M, since then it would accept both the Samsung 950 Pro, or SM951, or XP941 to make upgrade a snap, as well as be a home for the ADATA once we remove it.

Take a look at this link for the sake of an example of the different form factors for SATA or PCIe SSDs... Some adapters will work with one or the other, some with both. It helps to know what you will have...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lycom-M-2-PCIe-SSD-to-PCIe-3-0-x4-adapter-DT-120-/251521153976

I hope this helps some people trying to understand this.

See my other post to get more details on the process.  I found it tedious to find all the details in one place, so I am trying to fill in the gaps for people trying to do something similar.  I think the Spectre X360 is one of the best machines you can buy, with long battery, big trackpad, and 2 in 1 touch.  I think it is an upgraders top pic. It is too bad this information is hard to find and too bad that doing self-upgrades can void a warranty.  I would think HP could benefit by making it easy to make such an upgrade, or even offering the option for a Samsung 950 Pro on their website, which would really be something.

[afinpdx]

Thanks again for the replies. I continue to be amazed by how generous you all are with helping answer my questions so completely. I am going to sleep on this for tonight and contemplate wether I want to stay with the SM951 or return it for the 950 Pro. To answer MrTech's question...I'm probably unlikely to migrate this drive to another laptop 4 years down the road. But something worth noting is that my Spectre has a 6th gen  i7-6500U processor...which may mean there would be a benefit to the 950 Pro. Something to think about. Thanks.

[kanehi]

After opening my Spectre to see what type of SSD it was I replaced it from a 256gb to a 512gb one.  I bought the Transcend 512GB SATA III 6Gb/s MTS800 80 mm M.2 Solid State Drive (TS512GMTS800) from Amazon for $190.  But after looking for more SSD I saw a 1tb Sandisk 2280 SSD!  I'll stay with the the 512gb for now due to it might affect battery life with the 1tb SSD.   

[afinpdx]

Hello. Hoping I can still tap the knowledge of this group for advice. This last week I returned my SM951 to Amazon and traded it for the 950 Pro.  I followed MrTech3's instructions and did the following:

• Created a Win 10 install image on a usb drive using the media creation tool found here https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO
• Went into my Spectre's Bios and changed Secure Boot to Disabled. Then changed boot order so that  'USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk' is first in the order.
• Booted to the usb drive with the Win10 install image.
• Got as far as the 'Where do you want to install Windows' screen (see attached screenshot). It clearly sees my 512 GB drive as drive 0, but when I try to go further I get the error 'We couldn't install windows in the location you chose. Please check your media drive. Here's more info about what happened: 0x80300002'
• If I click 'load driver' and point it to a usb with the Samsung950 pro driver I downloaded from Samsung's site...it does not see the driver.
• If I  click 'new' and try to partition the drive it says that this failed and then it loses the ability to see the 'Drive 0'.

I really think I could get there if I could just get past this screen. Any advice is genuinely appreciated.