Defective F.23 BIOS for 2017 Envy X360 bq100na!

[Unhappy_Owner]

Calling it defective, even though it runs, because it's deserved.

So, I've taken it upon myself to resurrect an old (but relevant) issue, because HP Inc STILL TO THIS DAY have not properly addressed nor fixed it...

I'm talking about the HP Envy X360 bq100na laptop, or HP Envy X360 bq108ca SKU in Canada. These are the exact same laptops using 83C6 mainboard with an AMI BIOS, model year 2017, abandoned and neglected ever since HP refreshed the EXACT SAME MACHINE (more or less) into a slightly different repackaged chassis for 2018 buyers.

Here's the main problem: They left the BIOS absolutely broken and unfit for purpose on the 2017 model. This is inexcusable, because there is nobody else to turn to for fixing firmware related problems other than the OEM/vendor. Everything else represents a workaround. BIOS is 100% their responsibility. They should not be neglecting that responsibility.

The problem secondary to that one is how they left people like me who were foolish enough to purchase this laptop at the time out in the lurch, after they experienced a PR fiasco ( refer to this 44 page long thread here: https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Software-and-How-To-Questions/HP-Envy-x360-Ryzen-F19-BIOS-dis...  ) with BIOS update F.19 which they pulled from their website as a kneejerk reaction, although I've personally kept backup copies, just in case.

I'm going to assume the most likely reason they pulled this version is solely to maintain better compatibility with an ancient and horrifically out-of-date (at this point) Radeon video driver that the laptop originally shipped with. Then they (HP) had the nerve to play a coy little game of ping pong, where OEM (HP) blamed AMD for not issuing driver updates, and AMD asked users to refer to their OEM for properly customized drivers, but that nonsense is not the point here since it was eventually resolved by AMD choosing to provide proper long-term driver updates themselves, as they should have done from the start. AMD eventually did the right thing by their customers, but as for HP..?

Here's why I'm publicly complaining: Recently, I was basically forced (or else, no ACPI bugfixes for you!) into updating to F.23 instead of remaining on F.19, (I normally would have left alone, since I didn't trust HP updates, and you can't rollback any BIOS) simply to solve bigger bugs in the system BIOS regarding the ACPI tables. I figured it had been long enough, considering the original date of BIOS publication for F.23 was late 2021. Except the "update" has reintroduced some older bugs related to hardware accelerated video playback. Stutters, hitching. Mainly under Edge browser when enabled, but F.19 did not exhibit this specific behavior.

Apparently, the currently maintained branch of BIOS that DOES receive ongoing security patches and bugfixes features a similarly outdated and archaic AGESA microcode revision, 1.0.0.0 (I think that was the VERY FIRST version..?) instead of the newer 1.1.5.0, which F.19 introduced. That only seemed to cause instability if people used the HP specific driver - mainline AMD drivers were fine. If I'm going to be VERY charitable here, 1.0.0.0 probably plays a little bit better with the terribly out-of-date HP specific video driver, but realistically, nobody who is still actively using this laptop today (or tries to anyway, instead of throwing it out in trash due to e-waste) is running that driver anymore. I know I'm not. They are way too far behind the mainline driver from AMD by now.

The issue today, is that HP is now the one still holding onto the "poor support" bag here. Ever since they pulled BIOS F.19, they DOWNGRADED the 2017 laptop with an older AGESA version, (1.0.0.0) when F.19 introduced an AGESA UPGRADE to 1.1.5.0. Rolling that back is not a good idea for many reasons.

AGESA is the microcode capsule that Ryzen CPUs initialize and run off of, and typically higher version numbers within the same branch represent bug fixes and potential patches to the microcode to solve observed problems for that generation of CPU. Even performance uplifts. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGESA

So why HP purposefully went out of their way to DECREASE the versioning of this otherwise beneficial thing, is completely beyond me. Unless it was for the reason I speculated on, and only had to do with their own horrible video driver release for the laptop?

Overall my question stands: Why is HP refusing to update the AGESA version in their currently maintained BIOS, F.23, for 2017 Ryzen based Envy X360's? I was forced into updating to this one simply to resolve problems with incorrect ACPI tables and sleep states, but I've noticed the AGESA downgrade really hurts, and some hardware acceleration video stutter that used to be present on earlier BIOS versions has returned. Why does HP forbid users from rolling back their BIOS if they are unhappy with the "update" they pushed out, and can we allow users to alter their own VRAM parameters in a BIOS setting addition? Seriously. I'm only asking for three relatively small things.

1. Update the AGESA. Please. This is by far and away the single most important underlying problem the laptop has. This would be my chosen priority above all else.
2. Let users tweak VRAM in settings between 256MB, 512MB, and 1024MB, like Asus, MSI, and Gigabyte motherboards do. If they can offer the feature, there is not much excuse here. It's basic, and doesn't even involve anything power management related like overclocking.
3. Allow BIOS rollbacks.

I am very happy AMD ultimately did the right thing and provided long-term driver support in place of HP. But, I am NOT happy HP themselves are dragging their heels on issuing AGESA improvements for the 2017 laptop which is essentially the same as the 2018 laptop specs wise which DOES somehow receive such support.

Refusing to update the AGESA microcode is an especially dumb decision because recently, Windows 11 REQUIRES the fTPM to be enabled for install, and people have reported stuttering problems associated with older AGESA microcode revisions whenever it's enabled. AMD intends to push an AGESA update out this May of 2022 soon in order to address the bug. Refer to this article: https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-410 

Here's what HP should take away from that since it's straight from AMD themselves: AGESA updates are CRITICAL for resolving the Ryzen platforms bugs. HP shouldn't be regressing and stagnating them like this!

If HP refuses to PROPERLY update the BIOS on the 2017 model, it may end up being unusable for Windows 11, in that case. Even though it would otherwise meet all specifications, but hey - planned obsolescence. More money. Or, they THINK they'll get more money, anyway... They won't be from me, due to burning me over this.

I don't WANT to have to order an EEPROM programmer in order to bypass the artificial restrictions imposed to prevent BIOS rollbacks. But, if I have to go through THAT extreme of a measure to physically force a flash onto the laptops BIOS chip itself from another computer of mine to "fix" the machine simply because the manufacturer doesn't want to provide proper support and is actively hostile towards their customers, then I guess I will? At the very least, treating early adopters in this negligent manner carries consequences -> I will be loud and outspoken about the problems I have had with this companies products, and will recommend staunchly that people stay away. I'll probably make it a point to avoid buying another HP laptop for my own personal use in the future should I have to replace the machine if this problem remains unfixed. Which it looks like it will, unfortunately.

I guess I'm done ranting. The lack of proper BIOS support really makes me want an open sourced BIOS initiative that the community can maintain for the long haul, because you just can't trust these manufacturers to do so.

[sandytechy20]

@Unhappy_Owner

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[Smith6612]

Sorry to bandwagon onto the thread. I just updated the HP ENVY x360 BQ100 I have to the F.24 BIOS, which is supposed to contain security fixes. I will point out that the updated BIOS doesn't include a newer version of AMD AGESA, which is disappointing.

I, too, have seen issues with the laptop around stability with certain hardware components, especially the video. Video accelerated content from a fresh reboot or battery pull will run smoothly for some time, but as the system accumulates uptime, almost as if there is a memory leak, the video stability problems will worsen. Gaming wise I see little issue as long as there is a constant load on the GPU. I have seen issues with compute workloads (Folding@Home, Vegas Pro) as well as many issues with video playback (Streaming to and from). Crashes when using basic apps in Windows like Photos or Windows Explorer have also occurred.

Operating system has never mattered. I've had every build of Windows 10 on the system. Currently I have Windows 11 installed on the system (yes, yes, I know. First Generation Ryzen is unsupported by Microsoft. Insider Builds are also unsupported as beta software... but none of this changes the problem). The system overall works great when it's not having hiccups with anything relying on hardware acceleration.

Seeing the first stable release of AGESA still on the processor, after installing BIOS updates containing security updates four years later, is disappointing. AMD has released fixes for elements like:

• Speculative Execution: Spectre/Meltdown related Microcode fixes. Although AMD wasn't nearly as affected as Intel, the Microcode fixes are BETTER than software mitigations from a performance standpoint.
• IOMMU and Virtualization Fixes: My HP ENVY x360 has issues whenever Hyper-V services are used. For example when enabling WSL2 or Android on Windows services, when enabling Windows 10/Windows 11 Core Isolation for security, when using Hyper-V itself... the laptop will have FREQUENT hangs with the AMD Vega 8, and in some cases be rendered unbootable until I manually disable Hyper-V services. In other cases the hangs are so frequent the laptop is unusable. This also impacts the use of SR-IOV virtualization, which is what Windows will use when WSL or Android services are enabled.
• fTPM Stutter problems: These will coincide with video playback problems! Especially with DRM protected content, Windows will use the fTPM to authenticate a device's state as part of allowing streaming services to play back video in higher quality. The fTPM is needed for BitLocker (Pro Editions) as well as Automatic Device Encryption, which is done on machines with Windows 10 Home Edition. AMD publicly stated on places like Reddit that AGESA would be fixed, and my gaming desktop, which I built myself, has the fixed AGESA code and runs butter smooth... with Windows 11 on first generation Ryzen.
• PCIe Stability: I've had issues with PCIe Stability on this laptop. Primarily speaking, it would affect the Wi-Fi on the laptop with excessive power management to the point where Wi-Fi throughput would often suffer with stalls, latency, and packet loss. The Realtek RTL8822BE card HP provided isn't bad, as I have the same one integrated into a desktop at home and it's a performer there. Likewise PCIe stability will impact the Vega 8 Graphics, which is a common complaint of people with this laptop.

With that said, the laptop has performed mostly well besides the above issues. But graphics driver and operating system haven't mattered. I got off of the HP provided graphics drivers as soon as AMD started providing them, and even before then I was force loading the desktop variants of the Vega 8 driver because they were far more stable. On Windows 11, I'm running Beta AMD Drivers for the Vega 8 provided via Windows Updates, which aren't even on the AMD website. The same bugs exist there too.

Please update AGESA, HP. Update the graphics drivers as well! Stop bolting random HP Security fixes into the BIOS without patching the underlying CPU as well!

[sophiej575]

---

@Unhappy_Owner wrote:

Calling it defective, even though it runs, because it's deserved.

So, I've taken it upon myself to resurrect an old (but relevant) issue, because HP Inc STILL TO THIS DAY have not properly addressed nor fixed it...

I'm talking about the HP Envy X360 bq100na laptop, or HP Envy X360 bq108ca SKU in Canada. These are the exact same laptops using 83C6 mainboard with an AMI BIOS, model year 2017, abandoned and neglected ever since HP refreshed the EXACT SAME MACHINE (more or less) into a slightly different repackaged chassis for 2018 buyers.

Here's the main problem: They left the BIOS absolutely broken and unfit for purpose on the 2017 model. This is inexcusable, because there is nobody else to turn to for fixing firmware related problems other than the OEM/vendor. Everything else represents a workaround. BIOS is 100% their responsibility. They should not be neglecting that responsibility.

The problem secondary to that one is how they left people like me who were foolish enough to purchase this laptop at the time out in the lurch, after they experienced a PR fiasco ( refer to this 44 page long thread here: https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Software-and-motionleap-unlocked-How-To-Questions/HP-Envy-x360-Ryzen-F19-BIOS-disaster-DO-NOT-UPDATE/td-p/6931898) with BIOS update F.19 which they pulled from their website as a kneejerk reaction, although I've personally kept backup copies, just in case.

I'm going to assume the most likely reason they pulled this version is solely to maintain better compatibility with an ancient and horrifically out-of-date (at this point) Radeon video driver that the laptop originally shipped with. Then they (HP) had the nerve to play a coy little game of ping pong, where OEM (HP) blamed AMD for not issuing driver updates, and AMD asked users to refer to their OEM for properly customized drivers, but that nonsense is not the point here since it was eventually resolved by AMD choosing to provide proper long-term driver updates themselves, as they should have done from the start. AMD eventually did the right thing by their customers, but as for HP..?

Here's why I'm publicly complaining: Recently, I was basically forced (or else, no ACPI bugfixes for you!) into updating to F.23 instead of remaining on F.19, (I normally would have left alone, since I didn't trust HP updates, and you can't rollback any BIOS) simply to solve bigger bugs in the system BIOS regarding the ACPI tables. I figured it had been long enough, considering the original date of BIOS publication for F.23 was late 2021. Except the "update" has reintroduced some older bugs related to hardware accelerated video playback. Stutters, hitching. Mainly under Edge browser when enabled, but F.19 did not exhibit this specific behavior.

Apparently, the currently maintained branch of BIOS that DOES receive ongoing security patches and bugfixes features a similarly outdated and archaic AGESA microcode revision, 1.0.0.0 (I think that was the VERY FIRST version..?) instead of the newer 1.1.5.0, which F.19 introduced. That only seemed to cause instability if people used the HP specific driver - mainline AMD drivers were fine. If I'm going to be VERY charitable here, 1.0.0.0 probably plays a little bit better with the terribly out-of-date HP specific video driver, but realistically, nobody who is still actively using this laptop today (or tries to anyway, instead of throwing it out in trash due to e-waste) is running that driver anymore. I know I'm not. They are way too far behind the mainline driver from AMD by now.

The issue today, is that HP is now the one still holding onto the "poor support" bag here. Ever since they pulled BIOS F.19, they DOWNGRADED the 2017 laptop with an older AGESA version, (1.0.0.0) when F.19 introduced an AGESA UPGRADE to 1.1.5.0. Rolling that back is not a good idea for many reasons.

AGESA is the microcode capsule that Ryzen CPUs initialize and run off of, and typically higher version numbers within the same branch represent bug fixes and potential patches to the microcode to solve observed problems for that generation of CPU. Even performance uplifts. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGESA

So why HP purposefully went out of their way to DECREASE the versioning of this otherwise beneficial thing, is completely beyond me. Unless it was for the reason I speculated on, and only had to do with their own horrible video driver release for the laptop?

Overall my question stands: Why is HP refusing to update the AGESA version in their currently maintained BIOS, F.23, for 2017 Ryzen based Envy X360's? I was forced into updating to this one simply to resolve problems with incorrect ACPI tables and sleep states, but I've noticed the AGESA downgrade really hurts, and some hardware acceleration video stutter that used to be present on earlier BIOS versions has returned. Why does HP forbid users from rolling back their BIOS if they are unhappy with the "update" they pushed out, and can we allow users to alter their own VRAM parameters in a BIOS setting addition? Seriously. I'm only asking for three relatively small things.

1. Update the AGESA. Please. This is by far and away the single most important underlying problem the laptop has. This would be my chosen priority above all else.
2. Let users tweak VRAM in settings between 256MB, 512MB, and 1024MB, like Asus, MSI, and Gigabyte motherboards do. If they can offer the feature, there is not much excuse here. It's basic, and doesn't even involve anything power management related like overclocking.
3. Allow BIOS rollbacks.

I am very happy AMD ultimately did the right thing and provided long-term driver support in place of HP. But, I am NOT happy HP themselves are dragging their heels on issuing AGESA improvements for the 2017 laptop which is essentially the same as the 2018 laptop specs wise which DOES somehow receive such support.

Refusing to update the AGESA microcode is an especially dumb decision because recently, Windows 11 REQUIRES the fTPM to be enabled for install, and people have reported stuttering problems associated with older AGESA microcode revisions whenever it's enabled. AMD intends to push an AGESA update out this May of 2022 soon in order to address the bug. Refer to this article: https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-410 

Here's what HP should take away from that since it's straight from AMD themselves: AGESA updates are CRITICAL for resolving the Ryzen platforms bugs. HP shouldn't be regressing and stagnating them like this!

If HP refuses to PROPERLY update the BIOS on the 2017 model, it may end up being unusable for Windows 11, in that case. Even though it would otherwise meet all specifications, but hey - planned obsolescence. More money. Or, they THINK they'll get more money, anyway... They won't be from me, due to burning me over this.

I don't WANT to have to order an EEPROM programmer in order to bypass the artificial restrictions imposed to prevent BIOS rollbacks. But, if I have to go through THAT extreme of a measure to physically force a flash onto the laptops BIOS chip itself from another computer of mine to "fix" the machine simply because the manufacturer doesn't want to provide proper support and is actively hostile towards their customers, then I guess I will? At the very least, treating early adopters in this negligent manner carries consequences -> I will be loud and outspoken about the problems I have had with this companies products, and will recommend staunchly that people stay away. I'll probably make it a point to avoid buying another HP laptop for my own personal use in the future should I have to replace the machine if this problem remains unfixed. Which it looks like it will, unfortunately.

I guess I'm done ranting. The lack of proper BIOS support really makes me want an open sourced BIOS initiative that the community can maintain for the long haul, because you just can't trust these manufacturers to do so.

---

Finally someone is addressing this issue now. I have beein noticing it for a long time but saw no official announcements or anything like that.