HELP required to max out my first Z420 Project PC

[Rhothgar]

As my 'recent' posts regarding upgrading from xw4600.

I am the proud owner of a base level Z420 with the AS#618263-003 motherboard. 😁

Currently it has the E5-1620 v2 with 4 x 4Gb 1Rx8 PC3-14900E-13-13-D1 SK Hynix memory reference HMT451U7BFR8C-RD T0 AD.  I have stuck a Quadro FX3800 1Gb Card in it and a 240Gb SSD for now.

Do the Z420v2, Z440v3/v4, Z620/Z640 support NVMe by way of a controller card?  Presumably the Z420 is the same as the Z440 in that respect.  From my research, it seems you need a HP Z Turbo card?  Are there any other viable controller cards for achieving an upgrade such as this on a budget.  I have seen claims that the HP Z Turbo card supports up to 7Gb/s?

BambiBoomz provided some superb information relating to ratings along with useful information from SDH, DGroves too and I shall primarily use that information to start the journey on maxing it out.

Well the passmark rating on this system was 316 when I had the 256Mb Quadro 600 card in but this increased to 374 when the 1Gb card was inserted.

What I find particularly surprising is my Passmark rating is much lower than BambiBoomZ machine here:-

"HP z420_3: (Original) Xeon E5-1607 (4-core / 4 Thread @ 2.8GHz) / 4GB (1X 4GB DDR3-1866 ECC unbuffered / NVIDIA GeForce 7100 GS / WD Blue 500GB / 400W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (HP OEM ) > HP 2711x 27" 1980 X 1080
[Passmark System Rating: = 569 / CPU = 5492 / 2D = 538 / 3D = 60 / Mem = 1117 . Disk = 864 ] [Single Thread Mark = 1509] 9.27.1"

Does this mean there is something wrong with a component or the motherboard? Unlikely I guess. All RAM are seated correctly.

Interestingly the 2D Marks are ridiculously low on both at 26.0 and 26.1 respectively.  

The 3D Marks are141.6 and 796,1 respectively,

It was interesting to note how the other marks were affected respectively just by the graphics card change:-

CPU Marks 6753/6840
Memory 2703/2729
Disk 1857/2352

The BIOS is currently on 3.69 so I assume I should be upgrading this.

Should I set the BIOS back to default and go from there with settings?

Next plan is to get a cheap E5-1650 v2 CPU (£32) and perhaps 64Gb of RAM DDR3- PC14900(£80) or should I be investing the money elsewhere first? Obviously need the Z420 AIO Water Cooler too.

I have installed the 6.1.4.2 XTU software.  Most of it is greyed out with this current chip.  Is there a better version of the software please?  The Intel site is limited to 7.6.037 version which I believe will not work with a Z420.

I read online that someone has a Z420 for sale with DDR4 ram installed.  Is this correct? Will it actually support that and is it preferable as most the information I have been given on here states PC14900 and I trust this source over the other source.

Can anyone comment on the MS W11 upgrade pathway as yet?

"The Z440/Z640/Z840 have a different TPM 1.2 chip soldered on that can be firmware flashed to become a TPM 2.0 chip.  None of us know how strict MS will eventually be with their W11 upgrade pathway... it has some loopholes in it already that I believe will persist. "

[itsmyname]

@Rhothgar -- before spending any money, open the Windows "Task Manager" and switch to its "Performance" tab. Minimize this window, and run your usual programs, to "stress" the computer.

Restore that "Performance" window, and see if your CPU is running at 100% and if more than 50% of the RAM is currently being used, and how "busy" your SSD is. If the SSD is "not busy", then an upgrade to NVME will not increase the input/output performance.  If your computer has a "bottle-neck", you should be able to identify it, and spend your money wisely.

[DGroves]

 a nvme SSD is used to decrease the loading/saving times of the storage device, how much ram you have will not usually have any effect on your ssd unless windows is forced to use the swap file which is rather unlikely

unless you are using something like photoshop, or numerous programs open at the same time 16Gb of ram is fine for most users

the z420 (unlike the zX40 systems) can not usually BOOT from a nvme device, however there are software loaders that add the missing bios code i've done this using "refind/Duet" (pm me if interested)

rather than do the nvme boot loader, check ebay for the AHCI version of the sm951 ssd

(AHCI part number begins with "MZHPxxxx" the nvme model part number starts with MZVP)

there are also a few PCI-E SSD's that will boot in the zX20's, and the the apple SSUBX ssd's with the apple to pci-e card will also boot in the zx20 series workstations

the HP z turbo card is unique to the zx20/x40 workstations and will not work in other systems unless a hardware mod is done. you can use any generic QUALITY pci-e x4 m.2 card in these workstations as a boot/data device

both bambiboom/sdh have covered which cpu/memory modules to buy  numerous times check their previous posts

[SDH]

You have a lot of homework to do... it is clear that has only been partially done.  A large percentage of the answers to your questions have been posted here multiple times.  That is said with respect... but there is a lot of work that you can do personally and then ask significant targeted questions when you really are ready.  Here's some good sources and more than a few good tips:

On the W11 issue look up the recent advice here in the forum from Paul_Tikkanen because he has done the upgrades and found the best resources that work and make sense and are clearly explained.  I'll use those also when the time is right.  His HP computers that are now on W11 and are not Microsoft-approved are running great and have been auto-receiving MS W11 updates as they are released over time.

On the processor issue both BambiBoomZ and Brian1965 have posted extensively on exactly what v2 processor to use in the ZX20 workstations based on what type of work one will be focused on.  Do you need raw MHz speed or most cores is the basic issue.  You only would want to upgrade to a v2 processor that is HP-approved, and which can run at the highest speed the v2 motherboard ever can (1866 MHz) and is running with the fastest same speed RAM (which you have).

DGroves is an IT pro... he has forgotten more about these workstations than most of us currently know.

BIOS:  Never ever update your Z workstation BIOS from within W10... you risk bricking your v2 motherboard because the in-OS programs provided from HP for BIOS updating were built for XP and W7, and not W10.  There is a very easy method I have posted on to find the .bin file for the latest Z420/Z620 BIOS, and then have only that on a thumb drive and to then update from that thumb drive source from within BIOS.  If you need help on that I'll pitch in because it is so important... let me know here.

Regarding correct BIOS settings I'll post in this thread later a Replicated Setup file you can load from within BIOS to have my hand tuned BIOS settings for best speed.  Brian1965 has posted here on that and my settings actually take some of his input and expanded on that, plus more.

Z420 vs Z440... don't get scattered.  They are very different.  Huge difference in BIOS.  And big difference in cost.  You should not even look at the ZX40 stuff because you have your hands full with your Z420.  Wait until you choose to buy one... I doubt you'll need one.

ZTD:  HP should have called the first the ZTD G1 and they did call the second the ZTD G2.  The G1 is for the ZX20 generation and also can work on the ZX40 workstations.  The G2 is only for the ZX40 generation.  G1 uses specific HP AHCI controller M.2 sticks and G2 uses specific HP NVMe controller M.2 sticks.  On a practical level there is no chance of ever using a NVMe HP ZTD G2 in your Z420.  That rabbit hole is way too deep.  Actually I'd strongly advise you start with a SATAIII SSD, either Intel 545s 256GB (prefer 512GB) or recent release Samsung, same size advice.  Those bigger ones are a bit faster.   There are two gray SATAIII ports at the bottom front corner of your motherboard... only those two provide SATAIII straight from the motherboard.  Attach your SATAIII boot/applications SSD to SATA0 and your SATAIII documents drive (generally a HDD but can be a SSD) to SATA1.  If you master all this stuff first you can later finally fiddle with a ZTD G1 (ideally 512GB one)... search until you find an official HP one and the 256GB versions are more common.  HP flashed those sticks with custom firmware.  I only use official HP ones.  Or, avoid that last bit of speed forever due to the fiddle factors involved.  I don't use the ZTD G1 for myself despite having several in my stash.  For my wife's CAD Z620 v2 build I did use one with an official HP 512GB M.2 stick.  I can tell you... I can sense only a very small speed benefit (sometimes) in real world work.

Memory:  You have fast presumably HP RAM (ECC Unbuffered).  These v2 Z420 motherboards can also run ECC Buffered just like the Z620 v2 and Z820 v2 can.  Don't lust after Buffered.  They actually run a tiny bit slower than Unbuffered but have some benefits that counterbalance that slight speed reduction, which we choose to use.  Currently I'd stick with your 4 4GB sticks and add 4 more identical sticks.  There is a significant synergestic benefit of having all slots filled with identical RAM and I doubt you'd need more than 32GB total. 

However if you really want/need 64GB then there is another specific 1866MHz retired server ECC Buffered RAM I'd recommend instead... 8 x 8GB, another topic.  It used to be that there was a "binning" process for memory sticks that HP used to subselect the very best of the best and I do prefer to buy HP recycled memory if the price is right.  You can find the same sticks that may have originally been in Dell/ IBM/ Lenovo/ nonspecific other computers and if it is identical and significantly less expensive I have found it to be fine to recycle with those in these more recent HP workstations.  The last several alphanumerics on the stick labels are site of production so I leave those off during searching, and have mastered the production info PDFs to be sure of what the codes mean.

Cooling:  If you don't have a front bottom case fan get one... there are several HP kits that fit.  There is a black plastic Z420 front memory band airflow baffle that guides air up and out the power supply pulling it from out front up over the memory.  The rear bank has an "active" fan device.  I always add in that front air baffle if I'm maxing out a Z420.  Processor heatsink/fan:  The double large double cooling capacity one from the Z440 is a steal on eBay, and it fits perfectly for a Z420 and a single-processor Z620 build.  There are two types, and I now only buy the later stronger build.  You can use that 6-pin fan plug on the ZX20 5-pin CPU fan header just fine... hang pin 6 end out in space.  Here's a pic:

Thermal compound:  I only use the first version of Noctua's thermal paste (NT-H1) because it spreads so well and has performed perfectly for us on both fastest and overclocked v2 processors.  Brian1965 has his favorite too and he overclocks to a higher degree.  Overclocking by the way is another rabbit hole to avoid for the time being, if not forever.  Brian1965 is the king of overclocking the ZX20 v2 boxes and Bambi is close behind, but I believe they both need to stay on W7Pro64 for that... can't go to W10 or W11 because the tools don't work.  Hopefully you know what you're doing with thermal paste and processor upgrades.  Don't bend your socket pins!

Video Card:  nVidia K2200, used off eBay.  That is a very sweet and fast card, with driver updates still coming from nVidia for W10 and W11.

Finally... all links in the performance chain need to be of equal high quality.  If any of the major performance tips are ignored you can insert a weak link and lose that perceptible brightest spark of highest performance.

[Rhothgar]

Hi SDH

Following on from my initial posts about our xw4600 units in which you were very helpful, I thought I had refined my questions. 

I won't respond to your post in full tonight as I need to mull it over fully.

In respect of BIOS, I've flashed many motherboards in the past.  I would only ever flash using the utility with the .bin file on a USB.  My specific question is whether going from 3.69 to 3.96 will actually unlock anymore of the BIOS.  I am guessing not.

So glad you mentioned about 8 x 8Gb as I was looking at 4 x 16Gb kits which are obviously more expensive.  Page 98 of the actual HP manual here:-

http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04205252.pdf

Fails to mention anything about RAM speeds but does mention a max of 64Gb so naturally spread over 8 sockets.  I really should have figured that out for myself.

The current RAM is Hynix. 

I think the problem I am having is that I have read SO much on the initial two posts and we spoke about so many variations that it has confused me a little.

I am currently eyeing up a V3 or V4 Z440 but I have fears that they would run slower than a maxed out Z420 because of BambiBoomz's comments about the E5-1650 v2, E5-1660 v2 and E5-1680 v2 CPU's.  I did note that the lifespan of the Z420 is likely to be limited as time goes by which is why I am now thinking of getting a Z440 too with either a V3 or V4 processor although the Z820 does look somewhat tasty with its maximum RAM capacity of 512Gb!!!  I need to look back at the initial posts because someone definitely mentions a system with a max capacity of 192Gb (just thinking for the future maybe).

I do need to learn about balance as it is clear that I lack clarity in those areas.  I do want to run Photoshop and maybe AutoCAD or Revit at some point in the future again.

But basically for our systems, we just want to be able open programmes fast without any lag especially the Microsoft suite together with fast browsing and graphic generation related to that (of course broadband speed could be playing a large factor in some slow response times we see).

For example, it is not unknown for me to sit at my PC with 200 tabs open in Chrome.  I've just done a test on opening 100 clean tabs individually and it takes the xw4600 70 seconds to open clean tabs.  If they had websites on, when I restore those tabs it seems to take an absolute age for them to regenerate in a fresh session.   I am RAM limited on this machine to 8Gb so it is hardly surprising.  Conversely, the Z420 opens them and generates them as fast as you can open them - 100 tabs in 20 seconds.  It's that much quicker I don't think I am going to need to do much on that score.  Maybe 32Gb is enough.  Just checked some prices and HP 8gb sticks are running at £15 per stick at the moment which is considerably more than the CISCO (Samsung) RAM I checked out where I could buy 64Gb for only £80 (that is ridiculously cheap).  I've just spotted some Micron Registered for only £1/Gb!

Time to eat!

[DGroves]

one tip that many photoshop users miss is to open it "AFTER" all other apps/software has been loaded photoshop is designed to grab all free memory when it loads as a default, this will cause windows to page/use the swap file to move any programs loaded after it

as for the bios update, a usb key is not needed .The z420 has a option within it's bios to perform a bios update, you only need to place the latest bios on a  fat32 formatted key.... don't boot from the key, just enter the bios and select the bios update option and point it to the usb key, it will read the file and prompt you to begin/cancel the flash update

for you specific needs based on your description, a performance ssd is highly recommended using MLC nand or TLC ignore any ssd without onboard DRAM or QLC nand

i also recommend 64Gb ram as a starting point if you plan to load photoshop and a cad program at the same time buy ram modules that allow you to have free memory slots if possible as ram is going to be your limiting factor followed by cpu frequency and then core count

last, a video card with lots of ram will help in cad apps when doing things like rotating exploded views a 2/4gb card is not recommended for Revit but is usually fine for most autocad projects

if interested "PM" me as i have several used z820 "CAD/Design" stations that i'm going to list on ebay they have 6/12Gb professional cards installed and 48/64 GB ram with Fast SSD's as the boot drive with other options

[Rhothgar]

I simply cannot get my head around the sockets. 

I believe the motherboard has a PCIe3 x8 but the AHCI is x4 size so presumably won’t fit or would the x8 socket simply be partly redundant?  

I did watch a video online a couple of days ago that seemed to suggest that. 

someone has one of those Samsung 256Gb AHCI PCIe MZHP cards on Ebay at the moment for £500. FIVE HUNDRED QUID!!!! So that’s no-go. 

Surely I just need a PCIe to NVMe adapter card which plugs into the PCIe and the NVMe card goes into the adapter card?  One seller seems to have an adapter that accepts both AHCI and NVMe but surely that is not right.

[DGroves]

a pci-e x16 slot can accept ANY SMALLER PCI-E card  x8/x4/x2/x1 therefor a pci-e x8 slot will take x4/x2/x1 also some pci-e slots are open ended which allows a x16 card to slot into a x8/x4 pci-e  slot

i just bought two 256GB sm951 AHCI SSD's for 30 dollars each on ebay (USA)

here's one from your country for GBP 41.99 (Approximately US $56.87) a bit pricey but still worth it

pci-e M.2 cards can be EITHER AHCI, SATA, NVME, it depends on how the M.2 socket is wired

yes they do make pci-e NVME/SATA combo cards, look closely and you will see a normal sata connector on the card this is connected to the sata connector on the motherboard, only the nvme m.2 socket is directly connected to the pci-e slot

[Rhothgar]

Thanks @DGroves

The video I watched on YouTube taught me much of that.  I think where I am getting confused is seeing that PCIe adapter cards exist but not knowing if an M.2 card plugs directly into a PCIe slot.  Can you confirm that 

It seems wasteful that if I can put an M.2 AHCI directly into a PCIe 3.0 x 8 slot (ie Slot 4 is the only one on a Z420 motherboard) then would it not be better to utilise the full x8 electrical capability of that slot?

I am thinking from what was said earlier by xxxxxx that the NVme and perhaps even AHCI is a waste of time if I have an SSD already.  I would need to investigate your furhter comments iro this as it seems a minefield.  I am so used to old school MB's and PCIe slots being used for graphics cards and not much else.
 
I would why that 256Gb SM951 AHCI SSD is being marketed at £500!!!  If I bought the £41.99 one or another one but cheaper somewhere down the line, I suppose all I need to know is does it plug straight into Z420 without an adapter card.

I did a Passmark test on the xw4600 last night and I have to say I am a little miffed with the Z420 now.  

HP xw4600
CPU Intel (R)  Core (TM) 2 Quad Q9450 @2.66GHz, 8Gb RAM, 512Gb SSD, Nvidia Quadro 600 1Gb,.
Passmark  1158. CPU 1978 / 2d 217 / 3d 571 / Memory Mark 983 / Disk Mark 1857

It's nearly 4 times better than the Z420!!!  I am going to check to see if I could put the graphics card in a better slot on the Z420.  I must have it in the wrong PCIe x16 slot!  If not, I am bamboozled and gutted in equal measure.

[Rhothgar]

Card seated correctly. I am left wondering if the heatsink compound has dried up on the GPU.  

At first, I thought it may be because the Quadro FX570 (256Mb) is PCIe 1.0 (I think as it is listed at PCIe x 16 and not PCIe 2.0 x 16 as the Quadro 600 is) sitting in a PCIe 3.0 slot but the Quadro K2200 as recommended is also PCIe 2.0 so it cannot be that either. 

Where can I find recommended BIOS settings please?  Maybe something in there needs switching on or tweaking.  I've set them back to default tonight and the passmark has dropped slightly to 359 but that is now with the Quadro FX570 back in as opposed to 316 previously and 375 with the Quadro FX3800 card.  

Checked drivers are correct.  I am using 342.01 but should I be using ODE drivers?